Article

Happiness In Slavery

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Following is a review posted at amazon.com of Alex Reichardt’s book All For the Love of God: Life with Mark Prophet, A Modern-Day Mystic:

Today it feels important to tell you that I bless the day we met, and will continue to do so until I’ve taken my last breath. Your endless gifts to me bespoke a generosity of spirit that I’d never before been confronted with, and will be surprised to encounter ever again. Quite simply, you are the kindest man I have ever known. As I review my life, our time together was a landmark event for me…life changing. I knew at the time, and I know it still. I will never be the same.

The above quote is not, as one would surmise, from All for the Love of God. It is written by an actual slave (to his master) and quoted from p. 141 of a book called "Slavecraft: Roadmaps for Erotic Servitude" by Guy Baldwin. I cite it here to demonstrate the close similarities between so-called ‘chelaship’ as recounted by Alex Reichardt, and masochistic submission as exemplified by people in the BDSM community who are involved in 24/7 consensual master/slave relationships. But BDSM participants are clear about their contract, and it is not maintained through intimidation, or threats of spiritual damnation. And that’s exactly what held Reichardt in thrall to Mark Prophet.

Reichardt, p.29

I saw his great love for people, his honesty and how down to earth he really was. There was nothing phony about Mark. He met each person where they were and treated everone like his best friend. A very generous-hearted person, he was humble before God and man, always willing to give the other person the benefit of the doubt…He was as joyful as a child. Before long we were like the best of friends, and I viewed him as the caring father I had always wanted.

The similarity of these two quotes is striking. Sadly, Reichardt’s feelings of friendship and loyalty toward my father were not reciprocated.

Consider the following. As a child of perhaps six or eight, I remember my father referring repeatedly to Alex Reichardt as an "idiot," and "nincompoop." My sister Becky remembers dad saying again and again, "Alex, you twerp!" At the time, I actually felt sorry for Alex. I listened to my father saying these things, and wondered what in the world Alex could have done to deserve such enduring scorn. Realize that this was a man who basically gave up his life for my parents. He waited on my dad hand and foot, rode around with him in the car, massaged his feet on a regular basis, (to help Mark Prophet carry "world karma" of course) and did whatever he was asked, at any hour of the day or night.

I remember specifically one incident when dad berated Alex behind his back because Alex hung his pants up crooked on a wire hanger. I never heard my dad remark even once how grateful he was to Alex for his service, only how clumsy he was. Another running joke with dad was how Alex had fallen asleep and forgot which of my dad’s feet he’d been rubbing. "Which one?" dad would tell the story, mimicking Alex and curling his lip derisively, then he would guffaw. He blamed Alex for leaning the wrong way and causing a motorcycle accident where dad had been driving. (p.131) Both of them got pretty banged up. I was there when they came home and saw their torn clothes and bloody knees. A caring master who had Alex’ best interests at heart would have humbly apologized.

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Alex is a man who gave my dad total loyalty, even to the point of signing over his unemployment checks to help dad pay the bills when money was tight. Yet a short few years later when Alex forgot to pack my dad’s shoes for a trip, Alex had to replace them at a cost of $15. Monthly staff salaries were coincidentally also $15.

It didn’t end there. Alex was fined $45 (a whopping three month’s salary) for letting someone into a service with liquor on their breath, chastised for picking onions off a sandwich, and blamed for his "doubts" supposedly preventing my dad from lifting the fog on one occasion. (Yes, you heard that right–dad claimed to be able to control the weather.) Alex was fined the total cost of postage when he sent a mailing out first class instead of air mail. His crime? He had sent the mailing as per standard procedure and not asked beforehand. Alex was told he’d made a "week’s worth of karma" because he spoke louder than a whisper in the unoccupied chapel. He’d "disturbed the forcefield."

Dad mocked Alex by "knighting" him Sir Bernard, quipping that if he worked really hard he could become "Saint Bernard," implying that he was loyal to a fault, like a dog. (p.115)

Yet when things went wrong, Mark Prophet was quick to blame Alex. On p.143 Alex describes how he and Ruth Farnam were constantly singled out as examples of bad behavior. Alex excuses this public shaming as essential to the process of instilling humility. Again, humiliation is a staple of BDSM, and the more I read of this book, the more I realized how deeply this metaphor holds. And therein lies the problem.

It is important to understand that "All for the Love of God" is really two books. It is a book documenting the life of the author, and certain events which took place on staff of "The Summit Lighthouse" mostly in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s in Colorado Springs, Colorado. This section of the book is factual, and according to my recollection, highly accurate.

But there is a second book without which the first makes no sense. That second book involves flights of fancy so extreme and outlandish as to defy description. Only "in a world" of invisible (but real) masters, angels and past lives does the concept of spiritual training involving real-world humiliation make sense. Strangely, Alex recites his justifications without a trace of irony or acknowledgement of their absurdity (which is plainly apparent to anyone else).

The first and second books are thoroughly intertwined and inseparable. Alex describes past lives of the "messengers" and staff as if he were talking about well-established historical facts. He provides only self-referential evidence for any of the spiritual teachings. The book contains an appendix of "dispensations" of angels that he claims form some sort of spiritual "posse" around each person. To get an idea of just how ridiculous this is, on p.299, he tallies up the "posse:" "15 Seraphim, 4 Cherubim, 10 angel groups, 22 specific angels, 13 elementals, 1 Terton (whatever that is), 1 Ascended Master, plus your guardian angel." That’s substantially north of 100 angels per person.

I’m sorry, even by the standards of garden variety religious hyperbole, this is over-the-top. This level of disconnection from reality would normally get a person institutionalized. We’re expected to believe that these wild stories he presents are objective realities? It strains every fiber of credibility to the breaking point.

So how to analyze this book? It’s utterly incomprehensible without the spiritual component. Otherwise it reads like the narrative of a non-consensual slave, and comes off painful and pathetic. It’s surprising how similar "All for the Love of God" actually is to Mark Prophet: The Man and the Myth. Both recount nearly identical events. Peter Arnone rejects the supernatural component, and Alex embraces it. Peter’s account makes much more sense. I’m sorry to say that it portrays Mark Prophet as a very ordinary weak, self-centered and manipulative human being.

But Alex seemed determined to reframe Mark Prophet’s legacy in loftier terms. I only wish I could concur with him. But I cannot. In places, Reichardt even lets his exasperation show. But then he quickly self-justifies to let Mark Prophet off the hook and give him the benefit of the doubt–which is more than Alex ever got. Alex writes most credibly in this voice of the true and loyal slave.

Not satisfied with his own account, Reichardt bolstered it with no fewer than 16 co-authors. A lot of these people were my friends and mentors (or at least acquaintances). I grew up with many of them, and once looked up to many of them. These include Svend Andersen, Merle Bouma, Terry Canady, Timothy Connor, John Fox, Dorothy Lee Fulton, Donald Galvin, Alexandro Genis, Joseph Genito, Philip Hoag, Michael Kinchloe, Kenneth McNeel, Celeste Miller, Tom Miller, Paul Quintero, and Alex’ wife Margaret. Regardless of how I may feel personally about these people, arguments from popularity don’t really hold water. What’s important is to be objective, and that would involve at least the examination of this entire story in more human terms.

As people with first-hand knowledge arguing for a more realistic portrayal of Mark Prophet I can offer myself and my three sisters, Mark’s five children from his first family, Peter Arnone (author of Mark Prophet, the Man and the Myth), John Pietrangelo (author of Lambs to Slaughter), Randall King (my mother’s third husband, who knew Mark very well in the years before his death). There are no doubt others. But that’s beside the point.

Mark Prophet was neither a god nor a monster. He was a human being with typical desires and drives. He had the gift of gab, a thirst for personal power, and more than ordinary insecurities.

As a young man, he felt he had been unrecognized for his spiritual gifts, and had limited material success for the first 40 years of his life. But then he had hit upon a winning formula: by becoming a "messenger" he could express his spiritual beliefs and be materially rewarded at the same time. He finally managed to put together the support base and recognition he had been looking for. He left his first wife and five children and married my mom, who was twenty years younger. In essence, he did what anyone in his position would have done: he went all-out.

As his supporters grew and contributed more money, he began to feel beyond reproach. He began to believe his own press. He eventually became almost completely disconnected from what composed his real power base–the loyal members and staff. He could abuse them, he could treat them like slaves and damn if they didn’t come back for more!

The more cruel and insensitive he and Elizabeth became over the years, the more the staff worshiped them. What human beings could handle that kind of positive feedback without becoming corrupted?

This book fails to address that question. As a historical record, I’m glad Reichardt wrote it. He has an excellent memory, and these events need to be documented. I’m glad to have it for my family history if nothing else. So I give it four stars. But that’s where my praise ends. The flamboyantly fictional embellishments of supernatural fantasy take this book into another realm–that of a Paul-Bunyanesque spiritual tall tale which nonetheless reeks of abuse and dupery. The coup de’grace in that department was the account on p.178 where Alex was serving my dad breakfast in his bedroom. Dad thought that Alex looked a little nervous, so he threw the tray of food at him, saying "Forget about yourself and just serve!"

Any man who wasn’t wearing an imaginary dog-collar would have quit on the spot. Alex justified the act as something he needed for his growth. This is the mentality of a slave.

I’m all for consensual slavery if that’s what someone really wants. I’ve known several people in that situation. Some people thrive on surrender and self-effacement. They find a form of freedom there. I do think that under the right conditions with the right master, it’s a viable container for psychological growth, but it’s fraught with perils: In order for the slave to consent, s/he needs to first have full self-awareness and the absolute strongest grounding in objective reality.

As for the master: upon acceptance of the slave’s submission, he becomes fully responsible for the slave’s well-being. If he is a benign master, he will only give the slave tasks and correction designed to help him, rather than further debase him. It has to be a relationship based on true love and humility, not self-interest. The master should treat their slave as they would their own child–lifting the slave up, to add to the slaves esteem, rather than break it down. It’s a rare human being who has the developed psyche to pull that off, which is why healthy submission remains so rare. In my view, my father was either not up to the task, or for some sadistic reason singled out Alex for his very special and extreme mockery and mistreatment. It takes a lot to shock me these days, but reading this book I was repeatedly shocked by Reichardt’s justifications of my dad’s bad behavior. Even if he’s cool with it, I’m ashamed.

Because of his preoccupation with the (imaginary) spiritual pantheon of the Summit Lighthouse, in my view Reichardt lacked the self-awareness to evaluate his position. His narrative proceeds with one foot in the spirit world and he sees everything through that lens. No matter how bad it got, he held Mark Prophet as an unimpeachable guru in the spiritual "tradition of the eastern adepts." But unless you’re a true believer and share that view (placing Mark Prophet in the company of the Dalai Lama), his story comes off as a caricature. I’m sorry, but you’d never see the Dalai Lama throwing a tray of food at one of his monks, nor making a fool of himself by engaging in any other of my dad’s far-from-humble shenanigans. Epic fail in guruland!

It’s a pity, because Alex is a man who really could use a dose of good news after the merciless pummeling he received from both my parents for most of his adult life. Instead, he compounded the error by writing a book turning it around. He recasts the humiliation as a badge of honor. This unfortunately leaves the entire episode glorified and therefore more likely to be repeated by other would-be gurus in the future.

To Alex: I know you’re a good man and I know you have the best of intentions. Anytime you want to talk to me about what really happened, I’m there for you, and I’m truly sorry for the way my parents treated you. As Peter Arnone said, I know you are capable of figuring this out if you are so inclined.


Comments (39 comments)

becky lipinski / November 12th, 2008, 9:58 pm / #1

Sean, your comments in this review strike me as being right on the mark–and I suppose I mean that quite literally with your analysis of dad. (Since you were only 9 when he died, It amazes me that you’ve been able to come to what I feel is such an authentic understanding of what made him tick.)
I wish I could understand what made his disciples tick, although I am–finally–getting a better handle on that through reading the BSJ comments. I think this is something I’ve needed to do and I thank you and everyone else for all the input.
As for Alex, he has obviously re-written history to create a relationship which could only have existed in his mind. He is so ardent that I almost wish I could validate his vision. But, like you, I witnessed an association so abusive that it made me cringe. Unwittingly, his tolerance of mistreatment probably unleashed the worst in dad. Perhaps, as with most slave-master relationships, they both needed each other–and that need persists for Alex.
I was touched by your compassion (and affection) for him, Sean. I wish I could have shown him a similar compassion many years ago. Instead, I only felt pity and–like our father?–a tinge of disdain. I’m sorry for that.

Teraph / November 13th, 2008, 6:45 am / #2

Thanks, Sean, for posting all this stuff. It is fascinating.

I am still trying to get to grips with how someone so utterly obnoxious and abusive as Mark L is portrayed could command such a following. Even in sub and dom relationships there is mutual respect. Not all followers of Mark L and ECP’s bizarre religion could’ve been self-effacing masochists eager for punishments. The leaders must’ve had something more than just a few redeeming qualities.

Summit Lighthouse/CUT was a big organisation, not just some obscure sect. At some level, the leaders must’ve had exceptional charisma and attractive, endearing qualities. While that might seem subjective, it is still something that can be understood in terms of how it was for the followers.

I would never fall for it, but I can see the appeal of someone like Osho Rajneesh and can understand why people would want to join in with his shenanigans, it’s all quite exotic, but the likes of Mark L comes across as some jumped up used car salesman with delusions of grandeur, so how anyone would fall for his patter, I’d like to know.

We hear about how ex-cult followers complain of having been manipulated and abused in the most horrific ways, but far less about why they let themselves be treated in that way. It can’t just be because of a desire to fulfill a basic religious impulse, because they could join a conventional religion for that.

BlackSun / November 13th, 2008, 2:59 pm / #3

Not all followers of Mark L and ECP’s bizarre religion could’ve been self-effacing masochists eager for punishments. The leaders must’ve had something more than just a few redeeming qualities.

Very true. They had many redeeming qualities. They knew how to adjust their approach to each individual. I watched people who would stand up to my parents be treated with a lot more respect. Both my parents could also be very kind when it suited them. For example, they were very kind to us kids on many occasions, and gave us a lot of benefits. But if we talked back or questioned them, it was as if we had questioned God himself.

And that’s kind of the point. There was a lot of very conditional love. Of course all relationships are somewhat transactional. But it reached an extreme with our parents. Since they saw themselves as messengers of God, and had to maintain that illusion at all times, it crossed over into their family life.

My sister also has a much more comprehensive explanation for what attracted people in the first place. She gave an interview on interfaith radio where she talks about the spiritual side. Both my dad and mom were fantastic entertainers, and captivated people’s imaginations. People felt literally transported “outside themselves” and reported experiencing feelings of transcendence. So much so that they were willing in many cases to change their lives and spend decades in partial or total servitude. Now, many of these people are still so caught up in it that they refuse to even acknowledge the truth about some of what went on behind the scenes.

We know from brain science that loosely it is the left brain which gives us a sense of boundaries, identity, rational thought, etc. If and when the left brain is shut down (by practiced meditation, or a malfunction, like a stroke) people feel a sense of liberation and oneness such as reported by Buddhists. This is a strictly brain-based phenomenon, yet people who have felt it insist that it “proves” there is another dimension more real than this one.

My parents also closely followed a tradition which began in Theosophy, so any student who followed that tradition might have felt they had found a real live “source” of exclusive and current communication from the spirit world.

AmenASHandF / November 13th, 2008, 7:25 pm / #4

Mr.Teraph hello,
know your comment is directed to Sean, just have my personal experience I made reference to in my comment in #5 (if not, it’s in one of the last posts of Mr.Arnone’s writings) about Mark L. Prophet being more. He was, at it appeared in the recordings we were given of him.
When I got to hear Mr.Prophet for the 1st time, I was so young I don’t remember very well now how old I was. I just remember that around 13 us older kids over 12, had to start particapating in Suday services. Ugh! do we have to?! I don’t want to! We didn’t want to! But what could we do but stick it thru. I remember how cranky, upset, unhappy & how much of us showed protest to express our continued dislike of being forced to hear dictations. I’m laughing right now as the images flow thru my mind. But as you know, adults are trained not to give in to children’s disagreeing behavior. They’re the one’s who know better, right?
Well, the results were like every story on earth when parents or adults force kids to do something they didn’t want to do to begin with & end up being ok with it after all. In our case it was because we got to hear a lecture by Mr.Prophet himself. AND HE WAS FUN! Yes fun, he made us laugh alot. He was one of those guys who spoke with creativity, imagination, expression & humor. From then on, I liked him better than Elizabeth (Mother, I would say, her title in the community, not her name). “Mother” was mean, hard. I didn’t like her. Her husband was much nicer & much more fun in his lecture’s, than she was (for someone my/our age, as I got older I came to respect her eventualy). That’s when I, as a teenager looked up to Mark for emotional support & began to love & admire him as a Saint, Messenger, Prophet & later as a Hero when I found out he was a pilot in WW II. What an amazing fellow he was to those of us who only knew him thru his recordings & testimonies from older members.
See, I was a child in a lot of pain. My relatives were all in Mexico, all I had was my Mom, her husband, who didn’t show that he cared for me very much at times, love/hate between us, that I was an obligation/responsibility at times. Though there was good moments & learned alot from him. And on top of this…okey, I began to ball in tears, crying, that I had to go to my son’s playroom to cry, I don’t remember what I was going to say? Didn’t expect this and have forgotten how much Mr.Prophet had come to mean to me as a hurting teenager. Oh yes, that on top of all this I didn’t have a father who gave a damn about me.
You see, in 1971 my “real” father wanted my mother, to again, have another abortion with the local Wicth Doctor in Mexico D.F (city). My Mom when she was pregnant came accross her aunt’s Rosicrusion material (this organisation is an outbranch of the Freemason’s, another Secret Society, that also particapated in the Crusades), as she was reading it, she came accross the word/name Amen-Ra and it’s interpretation according to the Rosicruze material. (thus far I’ve had to take some breaks everone, I’m still hurting here as I’m writting all this. I want to get this done. It is very important to me that I do). The name historicly means Life, the God of Life, So be it, Let it Be. For my mother, as she read this, this was God telling her to keep me! My baby is to have life! I want my baby to have this name, I am going to name him/her Amen (though she tells me she wanted a boy, expected me to be a boy). No one in the latino culture had ever used it, so even more great. My mom liked uniqueness. Everyone has all these other holy names, so why not Amen.
So my mom chose not to go to the Wicth Doctor & have me instead, give me life. She said she suffered alot thru her pregnancy, physicaly that is, being sick alot. Her uncle wanted to get a gun and shoot my Dad! This was all in the early 70’s. It turned out my father made good money, 12 yrs older than my mom & married with two children.
I grew up having a particular memory that I finally shared with my mom when I was a girl. It turns out I was 1 1/2 or so & the man in my memory was my biological father. During a time when my mom tried going back to Mexico to live (My mother had left to the U.S. for Chicago, Ill. Obama, Yeah 08! – feeling better : ) a couple of months before I was born). She didn’t want to stay & he said that he wouldn’t help her if she went bk to the United States. He didn’t want his money going to the U.S., he wanted his money to stay in Mexico. That is the only time I met & knew my father. I grew up without a dad up to the age of almost 11. And that’s when I had my experience with my 1st father (Sean knew my step dad. I got my step dad’s email thru Sean & we’re actually getting together for Thkgiving. So this is and has been thru emails with my step dad, an important recovery and healing process for me)
Mark Prophet, as SLH/CUT/KotF Frat, thru the recordings they only approved of, for members to hear, protrayed him very differently than Mr.Arnone and thus far other exmembers who knew and have written aswell protraying him differently.
I have shared this, as difficult as it was to do so (did not expect this), so all can read, how one could have come to love, admire, follow and look up to Mr.Mark L. Prophet.
He had that personality in these recordings that was so fun, smart and attractive (so does my mom) but only if many of us knew the other side of him, our outlook would have been very different. Though I see that many knowing this aweful side of him still stuck on adoring him, like Alex R. I have found it physicaly hurts to go through truth that shatters or as I have put it in other comments “like knives to one’s soul cutting out the lies”.
It’s like those stories of kids knowing their father’s being a loving gentle and wise parent, then finding out they were killers. Members of organised crime or the criminal of a spree of unsolved murders. One image of the person shattered by the other. Which is it? Both? Or one over the other?
Hope what I have shared as a youth growing up in this religious organisation, has given an understanding to how & why many could have loved him. Dispite the aweful truth about him.
I just realised Mark was & served in WW II. He was in the Air Force. He does show a Drill Sergeant over a Private, type of relationship/mentality with his Chelas/followers/students. Maybe that was part of why he was so much the way he was, cold & refusing to show gratitude (along with his wife Elizabeth).

Sincerely,
Ms.Amen A. Sigala…Happy&Free

Teraph / November 13th, 2008, 8:13 pm / #5

Thanks very much for your comments and that link to the interview with your sister, Sean. I appreciate what you have to offer here re: your parents, as it must take courage.

When you say they were fantastic entertainers, and Erin that your mother’s magic was she was an artist, that sums it up, because basically all spiritual ‘leaders’ utilise forms of art and literature and present them as ultimate spiritual or cosmic ‘truth’. Just as Erin describes her pronouncements from El Morya or St Germain being inspired by the muse or creativity, that is all such things ever are: imagination.

Watching ECP on video it’s clear she was a formidable theatrical performer. In many ways she appears to be far more focused and professional than a lot of the more recent channelers, some of whom, it has to be said, make some pitiful efforts. They still get away with it, though, which in some ways is more disturbing than a skilled orator-channeler managing to command a following.

People want to believe such nonsense, it’s incredible. For some reason they can’t tell the difference between illusion and reality. Again, I think that belief in channeling and suchlike is quite different from just believing in god or a religion. It’s actually far more irrational.

Teraph / November 13th, 2008, 8:31 pm / #6

Amen, thank you :)

That explains a lot.

Your post just arrived before my last one by a second. I just need to take some time to absorb what you’ve written.

becky lipinski / November 13th, 2008, 8:34 pm / #7

Teraph: I’ve wondered about dad’s ability to inspire such loyalty too. Here is my analysis, for what it’s worth: Although Peter Arnone’s account is largely accurate, he fails to address the fact that my father possessed a natural “warmth” which was, on some level, genuine. Perhaps because of his own need to feel valued and recognized, he learned how to make others feel that way–and it was not totally disingenuous. His hokey down-home charm, gift for gab, and child-like playfulness may have put people at ease–he was the “messenger” but he was also “one of them”, simultaneously lofty and accessible. His early death probably added to the mystique–a warm , fatherly guru who possessed some of the “humanity” his widow (from all accounts) rarely demonstrated.
In the end, I think it’s a mistake to assume that all successful “gurus” are necessarily “exotic” or sophisticated.

Sean: You’re right, of course. Dad (and your mother too, I’m sure) was far more considerate of people who stood up to him.

becky lipinski / November 13th, 2008, 8:56 pm / #8

Amen: I just read your post. Thank you so much for sharing what is obviously still so painful for you. I’m VERY moved and want you to know that I sincerely wish you all the best–you were manipulated and mistreated as a child, but have emerged honest, brave, and strong!
You also verify my own feelings: that my father’s “warmth” counteracted Elizabeth’s far colder presentation. I often wonder (do you disagree, Sean?) if CUT could have grown so substantially without Mark’s mystique. Maybe they were the perfect toxic blend–a recipe for manipulation
And yes, Sean, they were first and foremost “entertainers.” I think I was aware of this in the very beginning, although I never put the concept into words. Their “performances” were –may I say inspired?

JoJo / November 14th, 2008, 10:48 am / #9

I just read Steven S. Showers’ comment to Sean’s ‘All for the love of god’ book review in the Amazon web site.

Incredible,It left me completely amazed. Reading his comment triggered a deluge of emotions and thoughts which in itself was interesting. Confirming yet again, although now days none is needed, how fortunate I am not to be part of such a malignant and mentally crippling vacuum. I was going to respond to his completely outlandish remarks and his hateful and sinister accusations intended to cause shame, doubt, fear and guilt. So very typical of the CUT mentality, lashing out with malicious vengeance void of any mercy or understanding. Every one who is in disagreement or against their beliefs is the enemy, (period!) The same old worn out stale ‘us vs. them’ approach. Amazing how their high mountain top has little room for anyone, except of course these privileged, get out my frigging way buddy my ascension waits, few.

We are all doomed, we had the greatest opportunity that god and the masters could afford us, and instead of getting on the automatic conveyable belt towards eternal god freedom, we blew it! And now we are simply doomed to eternal hell, and as for you Sean oh man, sorry buddy your royally fucked! Your only hope is that lanello will put in a good word for you for old time sake. ( wink wink, nudge nudge, no what I mean? say no more, say no more! (love monty python :)

Anyway, I didn’t respond to this Steven S.Showers guy, who is he anyway? the name sounds familiar. I would love to custard pie his face, but I know humiliation is a badge of honor with this people.

Teraph / November 14th, 2008, 10:09 pm / #10

No, it isn’t imagination spiritual teachers use. It’s fantasy appealing to the imagination.

I wouldn’t assume all successful gurus are ‘exotic’, that’s my description of Osho as an example, from a subjective view point. There are certain gurus I might follow if I had a religious, spiritual or cultic orientation.

Just trying to piece it all together. As an outsider, doing some research. So, thanks for the clarification. In some ways, these things are beyond me, because although I have experience with cults, I have no family to speak of.

Amen, I feel very moved, more than you might think. I don’t know what to say. I’d just like you to know you’ve provided the answers to my questions.

AmenASHandF / November 16th, 2008, 10:25 am / #11

Mr.Teraph thank you,
there is so much more that brought me to tears that is connected to all the pain in my life and the need I had to the organisation known as Church Universal and Triumphant.
I have a mother I say is that is like a little bit as the characters known as Lucy in “I Love Lucy”, Geni in ‘I Dream of Geni” & yes literally Joan Crawford in ‘Mommy Dearest” (I was 11and a couple months when I saw that movie and couldn’t believe how much the portral of Joan Crawford reflected my own mother’s horrible side and my own relationship with her).
My mom looks so much like Barbara Eden, really (my mom’s German father gave her her light skin and she’s a bleach blond ; ) and on top of this she acts so much like the character Barbara eden played as Geni! Always trying to do extra good but making a mess instead, getting everyone (including me as I got older) upset! And the Lucy part is literally just as Lucy did! My mom always was up to tricks of some sort to get what she wanted! Crazy! and me along with everyone else yelling at her like Ricky Ricardo when she’s found out! The Mommy Dearest part was her dicaplinary insane side. Long list that I’ll just give one. This mother of mine had me do what many in a CUT would call “Michael’s”. It was short for a decree (prayer) to the Archangel Michael.
I had done something that drove my mom to feel I needed to do some “Michael’s” as exorcism of my ‘bad” behavior or she just wanted me to learn to do them. I’m vague on the reasons why. (Oh my god, I’m able to laugh right now as I’m remembering this but it was horrifing & painful, when my mom did what I’m about to say. I’m realising how much this incident made me one tough cookie! and how insane a person’s mind can become with spirituality. I laugh at how much as a child I stood my ground not to give to my mom what she demanded. I remember only being 6 yrs old.
Well, I refused to do them!!! My mother threatened to put me under a cold shower of water if I continued to refuse! Ok, go for it I I said in my own words as a child. My exact words were something like “Good! Do it!”. And she didn’t till after many, many tries and continued threatening. She had my new babysitter, who lived with us, help her get my clothes off to stick me under freezing cold Chicago water! Naturally, not funny here, I am crying, sreaming, kicking as these women were trying to strip me naked to go under a freezing cold shower of water (my mom convinced this babysitter to enter the “teachings too. She lost it too in these ‘teachings” but that’s another story.)
These women got me under that shower of cold water and my mom still tried to make me do them! “No! I’m not going to! No!” On and on this went for who knows how long, maybe 20 min or so, maybe less. The babysitter was there the whole time and was the one who convinced my mom it was time to take me out when I was turning purple, my lips that is. My mom didn’t so quickly give in! She had to put conditions on me first, who gives a damn her daughter was turning purple and probably going to die of hyperthermia! My moms a freaking crazy drill sergeant! To this day she doesn’t give me to much sympathy. Though she can be soft about some things. Friends of mine who are German, part that is, say it’s her German blood that makes her that way. Elizabeth was part German. Who knows, maybe a little.
I did crack so to speak and did those damn Archangel Michael’s! This is how they go:
Lord Michael before, Lord Michael behind
Lord Michael to the right, Lord Michael to the left
Lord Michael above, Lord Michael below
Lord Michael Lord Michael wherever I go
I Am His love protecting here
I Am His love protecting here
I Am His love protecting here
The End.
Something simple a little child at 6 yrs of age can do and enjoy when made fun to do with other kids! Not like my mom made me do it! Good god! My mom’s something else!
When these lady’s took me out I remember both being very loving and comforting for having done this to me. My mom drying me up, hugging and explaining the importance of decreeing/praying was. That the devil in us doesn’t like us to do them and this is why she had to do this to me, get that devil out. My mom lovingly and very satisfied to my cooperation sat with me to teach this decree/prayer to me. Her love and comfort reassured me of her love and that this was never going to happen again! It never did! From then on they were part of my morning prayers when I walked to school all by myself in the big city of Chicago.
As I am writing this I’m realising how much God was my mother’s life preserver. She held onto God for dear life and she wanted to pass that security unto me, aswell as give herself a guerantee of my safety when I walked to school all by myself. This babysitter of mine who lived with us wked in the day, coming home to care for me in the afternoon.
This is a Light Bulb Moment as us Oprah fans say! Never realised this till right now! Wow! Thank you Sean for establishing BSJ!
Should I add that the year before this accured my grandmother (who I knew as my aunt) tied me up, ankles to wrists and gagged me on top of that! All this because I broke a necklace she bought that I asked for several times but she couldn’t afford. I broke it deliberatly while I was angery at her about something. When I approached my grandma about it, I attempted to get away with saying it was an accident but she knew it wasn’t. And so she, out os control, lost it, tieing me up with bandanas gagged and all. I later learned in my life an old mean woman that was in her home, was her mother in law. She was a wtich! and remember my grandma crying and very unhappy at that time this mother in law was over. I understand this contributed to her out burst in tieing me up and leaving me on my cot all tied up till I fell asleep. She untied me later that evening. That awful mother in law saw me with her mean teenage grand daughter, both just sitting there staring at me screaming and crying, doing nothing. I remember feeling so angry at seeing me all tied up.
So everone, you can understand now why I’m a little insensitive or unmoved at adults following anything screwed up. Thay’re suppose to know better, but I should to. Adults don’t always know better themselves. Adults are sometimes grown children with their own issues. Mark & Elizabeth were like the rest of us trying to perfect ourselves for heaven/God & they didn’t in many areas, as many of us found this to be so with ourselves in this church after so many years. And as we see it unfolding itself thru all the written material to date on these two.
I want to end saying in 93 my mom rented to a communist Chese named Chung Ping, they got along fabulously but she didn’t tolerate him being to nice to me. So one nite she had it with him and brought in this sword, unsharpened of course, laied it on the dresser to intimidate him! I got home from somewhere coming into this situation not knowing what prov. This was it for me! I lost my mind with my mother but kept on with my loyality to the ascended Masters! OOOOO weeeee! It’s been a trip!!! that chinese Communist paked up & left! I had called tatiana about this & she craked up, it was funny! But I didn’t & couldn’t see the humor in it. I eventualy did as I shared it with so many during the summer conference of 93.
I stop with the Keeper of the Flame fratern. T

AmenASHandF / November 16th, 2008, 11:37 am / #12

SORRY! My computer froze & wouldn’t let me go back to correct or finish.
Becky, thank you aswell. Didn’t mean to forget you.! ; )
I was going to end saying that the org had four main groups:
The Summitt Lighthouse (it’s name in the beginning), Summit University, Church Universal and Triumphant and The Keepers of the Flame Fraternity. My mom never became part of the CUT part. Individuals who formaly were part of CUT had to tithe, give 10% of thier income after taxes. The Frat is all I ever wanted to be a part of. Anyway, left it in 94/95 but still divided about everything. I’m independant & non-denominational, a redefined atheist now (to me God exist’s all in our heads & it’s power). I have my rational down to earth relationship with my fellow humans & the earth now
I am so happy for all of you who have healthy fullfilled lives, with no or almost non of the out of sanity many of us have endured. Don’t ever take it for granted! Respect & apprecieate your lives. As it’s said, there are those who’ve had it worse! Even I have to say that to myself every now & then. Thank you everyone for reading my piece, caring & being part of BSJ
Sincerly,
Peace & Love

P.S. Teraph, when u say u don’t have family, do u mean children & a wife or relatives?
Thk u Teraph, Becky & anyone else I might of forgotten & of coarse all future comment’s to my personal piece. U to Sean! I think any more long writting I should leave it for my bk ; )
Thk u for the opportunity for having to be able to have shared what I have, very much!

becky lipinski / November 16th, 2008, 5:16 pm / #13

Ms Amen, thank you again for all your input on this site! The revelations about your life, and particularly your childhood, are chilling–fortunately, you’ve come through the fire and are now able to help others, including your son!
The duality of your mother (one person on the outside, another on the inside) is a familiar theme. In the end, I suppose we all have to learn to forgive what we can. But we can never tolerate the continuation of cruelty and abuse.
Take care and best wishes, B.

Teraph / November 16th, 2008, 8:57 pm / #14

AmenASHandF wrote:

“Teraph, when u say u don’t have family, do u mean children & a wife or relatives?”
All of them, yes, but …. if you’d like to continue this conversation, send me your email address, please. If not, no worries. Thanks :)

AmenASHandF / November 16th, 2008, 11:46 pm / #15

Teraph,
Sure! The only way I know this is possible is thru Sean. So that’s what I’ll be doing. “Talk” some more soon!
Amen, H&F

Becky, hey! Thks. Boy life’s been a trip! Like u mentioned in the other post (paraphrasing it-sp?), forgiveness isn’t something that comes easily & maybe ever, really. I know, it’s been a roller coaster for me between my mother & myself & this rel’s org. I also find this lays over at times, of coarse, with my friendships, relationships & buisness relations. When my trust’s been violated, I just have to do some Deep breathing & It’s Life! Gosh Darn it! Is my response these days! Usualy I’ve always wanted to just give the person a bit of thier medicine! Feel like I’m Planet Crazy sometimes, not earth! Earth is a to elegant of a name for this place we all live on. That yin/yang again. Earthy but La La in nature this reality is, ha ha ; )
Talk to u again soon!

JoJo / November 17th, 2008, 10:55 am / #16

Sean, WOW! I just read a few of this guy’s comments on Erin’s amazon book review site, and briefly, very briefly checked out his web site. Absolutely no comment! what would be the point.
All i can say is, imagine being stuck with this guy next to you on a red eye flight across the atlantic? jeez luise! :(

Jokingly I would say, If there was such a thing I would glady cross over the dark side to kick his butt /…..man….that is some tool huh?

becky lipinski / November 18th, 2008, 9:23 pm / #17

Amen: Yes, I agree! Forgiveness isn’t always possible and, at times, it can even be detrimental. The Christian ethic–turning the other cheek–sounds nice, but it can lead to martyrdom and is often used as a manipulative tool, especially with children. How often have we heard: “YOU be the ‘nice’ one” or “Why get down on THEIR level?” or “You’re not perfect either”? These things are often said with ‘good’ intentions, but they separate us from our sense of outrage and can contribute to the cult of victimhood.. Forgiveness is sometimes a release, but I’m afraid we can’t dispense it carelessly.
I too have a difficult time dealing with anger after my trust has been violated! And how!

Sean: I’ve read the Steven Showers posts on Amazon too. I agree with your comments totally (got a laugh-out-loud kick out of the “Pig-Pen” allusion!) but, to be entirely honest, he frightens me a little. He’s speaking to an empty auditorium (I think he’s aware of that on some level, which may fuel his obsession with you–and that concerns me.)

AmenASHandF / November 18th, 2008, 11:43 pm / #18

Becky,
That reminds me of a night, as a young teenager laying on my bed, I said to my self after trying to forgive or something, can’t recall exactly what I was thinking or tring to resolve. I said I’ll forgive but I won’t forget! And went thru an interesting journy finding out how sick one can get not letting go but having such a hard time understanding the difference, if any, of letting go-forgiving-forgetting. Oh, finding the balance of this or was it thru maturity / time? For me it came with maturity & wisdom I think. Also having a child forces one to let go of anything to everything waying one down or making one very ill !

becky lipinski / November 19th, 2008, 12:24 pm / #19

Amen: Yes, “holding on” can lacerate our lives. People who get stuck in perpetual victimhood become their own abusers, although that doesn’t mean abuses should be forgotten (even if that was truly possible!). It sounds as if you’re dealing with your past as well as anyone possibly could. Your deep love for your child has probably helped you achieve a better “balance”–and your ability to love genuinely shows that your humanity is intact, in spite of all the damage you’ve sustained!!
As for Mr. Showers, I have some compassion for him. He’s a person of intelligence, as his undeniable agility with words reveals. But HE is “holding on”– holding on to a loyalty which is so fierce that it seems to have consumed all reason and rational thought.

becky lipinski / November 20th, 2008, 9:06 am / #20

Thank you, Ms. Amen :)

More later…

AmenASHandF / November 20th, 2008, 1:57 pm / #21

Becky,
you said it all to a T, includiing Mr.Showers.
I went on hid sight, left a comment & he responded to it the same day in one sentence. I just down right puit it bluntly that his reponses & questions were off the wall & a waste of ones time. He reponded that my interpretation to love is treating him like a cigerate budt (sp?) under one’s heal. I reponded in a way he would understand/accept & that it was a test to see his response. He seemed to be satisfied this time because he didn’t have anymore to say to me after this one.
So the man can stop, just got to know where he’s coming from, in my case that seemed to be so.
Like you said his loyality is FIERCE. Don’t worry, I don’t see him as person capable of hurting anyone physicaly. The loyality is to strong to fall in that awful diretion.

Myriam Koepcke / November 20th, 2008, 10:24 pm / #22

I like Steven. I find him humorous.

BlackSun / November 21st, 2008, 1:11 am / #23

Hello all,

I have deleted my recent comments regarding Steven Showers. They were undignified and beneath what I think belongs in this forum. I will no longer talk to or about him on this site. If I have to, I will delete comments that include his name or any reference to him. BSJ was started to be a discussion about ideas, not personalities.

Mr. Showers has long ago disqualified himself as a participant or subject of any meaningful discussion for the following reasons:

-He has repeatedly refused to engage in the most rudimentary evidence-based dialog.

-He has engaged in troll-like conduct in several forums by posting lengthy, irrelevant, and repetitive assertions of spiritual (and therefore unprovable) certainty about the value of my life choices and the life choices of others. He has stated the "inevitability" that I will eventually change my mind and agree with him. This is an attempt to stifle and curtail the very "God-given" free will championed by CUT and most other religions. In my case, after careful deliberation, I used that free will to leave the ministry. Mr. Showers has made it his personal cause to force me to reverse that decision, and to force me into a "dialog of the deaf" in which I have no desire to participate.

-He has opposed my process of inquiry, which has involved the making of solid intellectual arguments and the setting forth of accurate and factual statements about my difficult upbringing and unusual parents. Rather than dealing directly with the arguments, he has side stepped the issue by asserting repeatedly that this process represents some sort of "rebellion" or pathological "anti-God" behavior. (Repeatedly refusing to understand that it is impossible to hate or be "against" something you don’t believe exists.)

-In his desire to silence me, or muddle my message, he has acted in bad faith, posting an impostor site using my name. He justifies this by claiming to represent my true voice, therefore attempting to take away my right to speak for myself. This is in a legal gray area, and certainly unethical.

-He has claimed repeatedly in his writings that I lack agency, and am not capable of speaking for myself, but rather have been taken over by a "black magician" inhabiting my body.

Under the present circumstances of total and complete disregard for standards of personal dignity, debate and communication, Mr. Showers has therefore conceded any and all rational arguments by default. No matter how lengthy or convoluted his volumes of unsupported opinion may be, no matter how many byzantine analogies he may invent, he cannot disguise his utter lack of relevant substantive content.

I will therefore with good cause ignore any further references to Mr. Showers. Though I may have made light of it previously, I do not consider any of this to be a joke. His goal is psychological domination, not enlightenment. He has overstepped the bounds of both decency and reason at every opportunity. This included harassment and borderline stalking behavior toward both me and members of my family over a period of several years. At one time he tried to convince Erin she was his "twin flame." (Ever wonder why he gave her book a five-star rating, though it would seem to contradict his very reason for being?) I would urge any readers to please not encourage him further by interacting with him. He is just itching for a chance to denounce anyone and everyone who has anything to do with free inquiry in general and BSJ specifically.

I may at a time of my choosing decide to address some of the more common errors and misconceptions he has been promoting on his site and now in the comment sections of Amazon.

Regardless of how he may dress these up in fancy jargon, they are the the same tired and empty apologetics used by religious believers everywhere. If he was concerned about the pursuit of knowledge, he would do well to take up some basic philosophy. If he was concerned about psychology, he would read Carl Jung to understand why the shadow is something to be embraced, not avoided. He would do well to study human nature to understand why dedication and appreciation of love and beauty are not limited to believers. A rose or Pacific Ocean sunset is just as profound to an atheist as it is to a believer. Because we consider such physical manifestations of beauty occur naturally and without divine intervention, we can appreciate them for what they are–in the totality of their essence and component parts–rather than pretending they are mere representations of something we will never actually see. A course in the basic sciences would help him understand the automatic functioning of such deeply satisfying natural processes. He makes a common mistake that many believers make: they use a "God of the gaps" to fill in what they lack in their understanding. It is the pursuit of such deep meaning I’ve been promoting from day one at BSJ.

Further discussion of Mr. Showers’ futile, shallow, and one-sided crusade would only detract from that goal, which is the growth of self-awareness, human knowledge, and true understanding of the physical universe.

Myriam Koepcke / November 21st, 2008, 12:44 pm / #24

Are you mad because I converted to Catholicism?

Louis / November 21st, 2008, 2:08 pm / #25

Am I mad because I converted to Catholicism? *fixed

BlackSun / November 21st, 2008, 3:21 pm / #26

Myriam, my statement has little to do with you. You think I can read minds?? I frankly had no idea you had gone and done such a thing. It’s pretty understandable since CUT’s rituals are very Catholic influenced. Your comment was a reality check.

But I do feel a bit sorry that after all you’ve been through you would do that to yourself.

Myriam Koepcke / November 21st, 2008, 3:19 pm / #27

*fixed

Unfortunately true. I didn’t understand the implications at the time and it can be undone. But the conversion won’t be. Are you mad because I converted to Catholicism? And may I call you Lou?

Myriam Koepcke / November 21st, 2008, 10:18 pm / #28

I apologize. You obviously didn’t get my email.

I value your input, Sean. I’ve learned a lot from you and your sister, and am grateful to both of you for your often profound insights, and for the existance of this forum.

You, Tatiana, and your other sisters recieved a lifetime of training in how to reflect what you see–and perhaps even what you don’t see–accurately enough that the beholder can learn from his/her own reflection. That is what Guruship training is. I don’t believe continuing membership in the organization that trained you, or whether you consider yourself to be a Guru, is relevant to whether you have retained the knowledge you could not help but have gained after 30 years of rigorous training, including discipline so rigorous and starting at such a young age that few others have ever recieved or could begin to appreciate the same (Steven Showers included.)

Though you left the religion of your origin to pursue the life-directions that called to you personally, your training shines through in The Black Sun Journal itself: its reflection of the state of our country’s (and the world’s) environment and political realities, and the reflection I have seen you provide for many people on many occasions helping them to better understand themselves demonstrates my point.

If the little bit of sorrow you profess regarding my pursuit of Catholicism is genuine, then I would like to know, if you don’t mind sharing this: What do you percieve I am doing to myself that is ostensibly “bad”?

BlackSun / November 22nd, 2008, 3:16 pm / #29

Myriam,

I’m glad I could be of help to you.

I’ve already said plenty about the Catholic church. Its doctrine is one of the most pernicious in terms of guilt and sin. They have opposed abortion rights. They have supported denying marriage rights to gay couples. They have opposed distribution of condoms in some of the countries most at risk for HIV. They have recently asked for people who voted for Obama to refrain from taking communion.

The belief in transubstantiation is patently false, and even if it were true would represent the endorsement of cannibalism. Bill Donohue as the Catholic pit-bull comes out swinging for censorship of any art or cultural product he doesn’t like. Even the accusation that something is “anti-catholic” is enough to make people avoid it.

Shall I go on?

You know better, Myriam. I’m of course for freedom of religion. But if you ask me a question like that, you’re going to get an answer. I hope the fellowship is worth the price you’ll have to pay. It is paid slowly over a number of years. You think in the beginning it won’t affect you–but it will. That is why I’m sad. I’m especially sad for any children who may be involved.

Pepper / February 17th, 2009, 9:58 pm / #30

Miriam,

Read The Gnostic Gospels (hidden ancient documents found centuries later) by Elaine Pagels to see how you have been duped. Gnostic refers to a sect of people that believed that God is within, and therefore everywhere.

Pepper.

amina / November 27th, 2008, 7:54 pm / #31

amen, Hi
I read your stories about your childhood punishments and was very sorry to read that, because punishing a child with cold showers because she would not do her prayers is called child abuse
no wonder why after that you said your Michaels everyday !
she broke your will ans sense of boundaries
perhaps the reason your mum was so obessed about protecting you was because of the own life history and dramas
this is also linked to the fact that she had a child out of marriage
you should not bear her adult problems , you never asked for them
Ifeel she named you Amen because of the guilt she felt with her sexuality, wanting to “purify” herself, and she joined CUT because of that reason too
but you don’t have to bear rthis either, you are a soul of your own and a human being of your own
ypur mum telling you about the details of wanting to abort you at a young age is very harmfull to the child, and it is very dificult to live with that type of childhood, because it make sthe child feel unwanted and unwelcome, thus “bothering” the mother’s life
your mum telling you she wanted a boy is also child abuse
it is all about negating your identity
for someone so devoted to God it is very destructive and incoherent
I amsorry you had to endure all this
my own life was not that reasy either ans quite painful as a child
at least Ican understand you for this reason
LOVE TO YOU , you did not deserve this by no means
and ypur are worth much better treatment

AmenASHandF / December 3rd, 2008, 4:12 am / #32

Amina/Jeanne hello!
Thk u so much. Because what you do for a living you have an insightful look on so many of the material here on BSJ, particularly w/ the psychological aspects of the sight.
As you know though my Mom came across the name Amen-Ra, the God of Life in Egyptian mythology and she was in a struggle to decide wether to have another abortion w/ the local witch doctor thru pressure by my biological father. Understood in time my father was that type of man that couldn’t resist beautiful woman while married, my mother was a looker at 17 & didn’t give in to his advances immediatly. Men like him get off on that, my poor mom. He was 12 yrs or more older, so the father image was her weakness. In fact she’s known for taking good care of herself to this day. She’s a pretty attractive grandma. No body holds back the surprise, impression, shock how good my mom looks at 56, soon to be 57 in Feb, when they meet her. How different we are, I look a little like her but don’t bleach my hair & am stronger looking than her. She’s very petite, I’m a stronger petite version of herself. Her wrists & ankles are so much skinnyer than mine. I did grow up being very protective of her because of her beauty & life story.
Yes, as I grew up I clearly saw my mother’s issues w/ sexuality that comes & goes to this day. It also helped me see how much the poor upbringing that so many generations have had on the subject is the cause to so many abandon children in the world. Sexuality is something I’ve always investigated & remember having to go through such a confusion to having done so. You know that “Oh am I making karma or doing something wrong looking into the subject to much? Attracting sexual entities” and all the uncomfortable feelings that come up or is it just that fear Gods watching? The research over the years has been facinating & enlightening!
How was your buisness trip?
Hugs & Kisses,
Amen

Louis / December 6th, 2008, 7:04 pm / #33

Are you mad because I converted to Catholicism? And may I call you Lou?

With regard to being dubbed Lou…

I probably should have had some forethought to use a tag, instead of my real name. I have no fondness for the name I inherited, and am really indifferent to it. I should have used one of my game tag’s (Lasrael Larson) that would have the same dramatic effect of Sean’s tag of ‘Blacksun’.

‘Lasrael’, in Elvin means, ‘great night’ and ‘Larson’ has Celtic origins, means ‘Son of the Dragon’. Louis, means warrior or something and Lou, the shortened version… Is that because it is easier to type?

With regard to your choice of Catholicism… The dual semantic of mad (anger & insanity) was just me being cheeky… disappointed, would be a better term.

A relative disappointment, of course; if I am correct in understanding you were once a part of CUT? Keeper of the Flame? Communicant of the Church? Even deeper commitment than that?

Relative, in the sense that a light went on, that CUT wasn’t right for you?

Optimistic, that the lights will continue to come ALL the way on.

Resigned, to the fact that, wherever you are at, you are the chooser. I respectfully disagree with your decision, but that choice is yours

What exactly is it, you are after anyway? (with regard to Catholicism…)

Black Sun Journal » Slaying the Supernatural Imagination / January 2nd, 2009, 2:01 pm / #34

[…] their entire perception of reality. I discussed the example of Alex Reichardt’s story (previous article), which only made sense in his revisionist supernatural context. Otherwise it became a tawdry tale […]

Arturo / January 16th, 2009, 11:52 pm / #35

Where is people's self steem? Manhood?? Honesty? Decency?
I see none reading the pathetic individuals involved in Peter Arnone narrative about Mark Prophet and the 'book' by Alex Reichardt. I don't have any compassion for these people. Any! They want to get abused and kick around by a false guru so be it. They might deserve it. I met Richard and the guy is dellusional and a lunatic.
At the end is all about human survival. Let DADDY or MUMMY look after us. It is time for us to get rid of us the false concept of looking for somebody to save us. It won't happen, and these people in the SL are the perfect example. A bunch of daddy's followers. But this 'daddy', Mark Prophet and alike were and are blind!

Andreas Mannal / July 7th, 2009, 12:42 am / #36

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? What do we actually know about this question empirically? Empirical facts are enforcing observations and measurements. Who can measure a man ?! What is the measure of a man ? Judgment ? Condemnation ?!

BlackSun / July 7th, 2009, 12:55 am / #37

Are you implying that there are no meaningful standards of human behavior?

joao valdez / November 19th, 2009, 1:25 pm / #38

o Sean what is this that you compare a personal act of gratitude to BDSM, what an emotional act of judgment, totally irrational. How can you expect people to believe you? if you want to be an atheist, it's your choice but you can try to be more objective and rational. you think it's by shocking people with that kind of language that you can expose better your views? what about common sense?

but i ask you a very personal question. tell me how can an atheist be rational since they fight what they cannot understand? example: if they cannot behold other dimensions of this universe, how they can reject the existence of God or spiritual beings that vibrate at a higher rate that cannot be seen by our physical eyes. There are scientists working hardly on this subject of other dimensions, they are not silly but if they were closed minded they would never to a conclusion. So I ask you, stop fight what you cannot understand and contribute to peace among mankind. Give a break to rationality in your website, if I can give you an advice I would like to see posted here new studies about interesting things (not just personal attacks) with an OPEN MIND.

Best Wishes,

Joao

tommy antonacci / March 23rd, 2016, 8:19 am / #39

mark and elizabeth may not have been perfect but some of there staff members where far worse as they were running the show behind there backs and do not forget a man was killed on church property in montana.some would say will brake your neck if you tell the messenger the truth we are running this church.so it was not all mark and elizabeth there were other's as well.

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