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America's Shame: Hatred of Illegal Immigrants

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“You lie!” shouted Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) at President Obama, in what Bill Maher compared to an episode of Tourette syndrome. Wilson’s unprecedented breach of legislative decorum concerned the President’s statement to a joint session of Congress that illegal aliens would not receive free health care under reform legislation. Why should the mere suspicion of a compassionate stance toward aliens stir such a display of outrage?

Xenophobia

Like crime-scene evidence–whether a telltale stain or the unmistakable stench of rotting flesh–Wilson’s outburst was testimony to America’s mouldering xenophobia. This oozing pustule of tribal hostility erupts from unseen depths of the paleoconservative psyche. It’s a visceral reflex that operates far below the radar of intellectual argument about immigration, legal or otherwise. As such, it is of little value here to discuss those arguments, which can’t even break the surface tension of the radical Right’s cauldron of resentment. They’re so worried that a Democratic president would extend benefits to ‘non-Americans’ they forget it was their hero Ronald Reagan who recognized the simple truth that it was un-American to have illegal aliens dying in our streets. It was the paragon of modern conservatism who signed the law requiring universal no-questions-asked emergency-room treatment.

Civilized ethics can be boiled down to two broad questions: Do you think in terms of short-term or long-term self-interest? How large is your “in-group,” or circle of concern? The right-wing mindset is typefied by incredibly short-term thinking and an extremely tiny and fragmented circle of concern. Therefore right-wingers can’t seem to manage much empathy, and they find any excuse to marginalize and dehumanize broad segments of Earth’s population. It’s especially easy when those “others” speak a different language, have a different culture or religion, or most importantly have a scrappy work ethic that threatens to upend the unearned privileges many Americans enjoy through the simple accident of having been born into the world’s dominant empire.

Meritocracy, a “Conservative” Value

It’s a fool’s errand to demand equality of capabilities, or to demand equal outcomes. Only the most idealistic anarcho-communists or new-age dilettantes cling to the fantasy of eliminating money, hierarchy, or private property. The rest of the world realizes there will always be haves and have-nots (or have-lesses), and the haves will always attempt to consolidate their advantages regardless of the sociopolitical system. But it is still profoundly unethical to deny equality of opportunity as a foundational principle of our society.

Whatever the reality on the ground, we should at least aspire to the idea that equality under the law and equal opportunity for advancement are worthy goals. And we must admit it’s extremely hypocritical in a ‘meritocracy’ to deny people the right to work wherever their skills are in demand. Free competition–and that includes the right to sell your labor–is the hallmark of free enterprise. Many conservatives rail against the minimum wage for this very reason, yet when a whole group of hardworking Central and South Americans tries to work for sub-minimum wages, the Right would just as soon arrest them, deport them, or worse.

American paleoconservatives also claim to respect our founding documents, the spirit and letter of which they routinely ignore. For example, the Declaration of Independence states that “all men are created equal.” Setting aside the obvious problems of this phrase–being poorly worded, creationist, and gender exclusive–it has also been roundly mocked: Not only by a grossly unequal American society, but even in the Orwellian doublespeak of Animal Farm, articulating the bankrupt right-wing attitude that “some are more equal than others.”

That’s felony-level hypocrisy, and conservatives definitely know better.

Otherness

But the faulty rationale of anti-immigration-pro-free enterprise demagogues is irrelevant to those who cultivate and feed off the bottomless pit of America’s primal fear of “otherness.” The scoundrels who slobber at this trough could care less about intellectual integrity. And it’s not just fear. Before you can foment fear, you have to fully demonize the out-group.

Let’s try to analyze this set of attitudes, by starting with the just plain “wrongness” of the above road sign. American drivers hit about 1.5 million deer every year. But we don’t consider it to be the deer’s fault. We built roads through their habitat, and they’re not smart enough to get out of the way. We may feel a slight twinge of sadness when a deer dies, but we’re far more concerned about damage to our cars and human fatalities. But in this instance, the silhouetted hazard looks more like a typical American middle-class family late to a baseball game than desperate Mexicans running for their lives. The woman is wearing a skirt, the daughter has a pony-tail. If it weren’t a highway sign, it would be totally Norman Rockwell. What’s incongruous and what horrifies me most about this little tableau is that a family of flesh-and-blood human beings have been morally reduced to a road-hazard. Compare that to the far more dignified universal pedestrian symbol: Unhurried, walking between the lines, belonging.

Beyond the unfortunate roadside symbolism, it is the disparity of circumstances that is most galling. Being apprehended or struck by an automobile are the least of an illegal immigrant’s worries. They are also separated from their families for years–not crossing the road hand-in-hand. They often pay thousands of dollars to “coyotes” who get them across the US border and desert at risk of starvation, dehydration or violence. Once here, it often takes a long time to pay off their passage, so going home to see their families is out of the question.

Slamming shut the “golden door”

I’ve talked to recent immigrants from Europe who hate illegal aliens almost as much as American paleoconservatives. Few things are more shocking to me. Sure, it’s tough to go through the process–my wife’s doing it right now. But empathy makes me want to liberalize and streamline the process–not make it worse. Why should anyone else suffer needlessly? But the resentment that someone else is perceived to have taken a shortcut turns some lucky legal immigrants into frothing neo-fascists. And we’re not even talking about a real shortcut. The life of an illegal alien is nightmarish by any standard. To be brutally honest, it’s a life on the lam. Who would take that deal if they had any choice at all?

Like American paleoconservatism, I think we can chalk up these bad European attitudes to unearned privilege. People in the first-world just can’t imagine the levels of desperation that consume the lives of the bottom billions. Nor the value system of someone who would risk their life to clean toilets for $5.00 an hour. Europeans have also benefited from America’s liberal immigration policies toward friendly countries, and the “visa waiver program” that allows people from those countries with clean police records to simply buy a ticket and arrive.

But there’s something else about Europe that might be causing this bad attitude: They have an immigration problem of their own. And they’re not handling it well. Instead of requiring their immigrants assimilate into European society, they’re allowing them to import their culture and build mosques and enclaves where people are encouraged to defy the rule of secular law. And they have not strengthened their constitutions against the onslaught of these Muslim immigrants who would undo the long European tradition of separation of church and state to implement sharia. If they don’t fix this loophole, democracy will collapse in on itself once Muslims have become a majority–and Europe will become a very different place than it is today.

An informal case study

Recently, I befriended an illegal immigrant from El Salvador. He cleans the bathrooms at night on every floor of a building in Los Angeles where I work from time to time. He works as a carpenter during the day–six or seven days every week. He’s the nicest guy you’d ever want to meet, loves America, has learned pretty good English. He’s been here for seven years and he has a nine-year-old daughter he hasn’t seen since she was two. He also has a wife and five-year-old daughter in the US. He owns a relatively new pickup truck he bought on credit and pays $500/month, contributing to our economy. He sends money home regularly, but dreams of being able to get his green card and bring his daughter to the US, or even to visit her one time.  But it won’t happen. By being here illegally for more than one year, this man has triggered an automatic ten-year ban on legal immigration. Under current law, his case is hopeless. He is permanently separated from one daughter, and he is only a traffic stop away from being deported and separated from his wife and his other daughter. With immigration reform, this man and millions like him could become tax-paying citizens of the United States. They could contribute to our health-care system instead of draining it. Most importantly, they could be treated like the human beings that they are.

But allowing such an obvious solution would require logic and an open mind. And red-meat Republicans are not interested in either. Their goal is to preserve American exceptionalism, narrow ideas of tradition, and the privileges of the patriarchy. We therefore have twelve million hard working illegals who live in this limbo, who are suffering through every day as official “non-persons”  in the desperate American gulag of illegal immigration–a cesspool of utterly pointless human misery. Why? So they can clean our toilets, mow our lawns, pick our lettuce, and otherwise make our society work. The way we have treated these hard-working people is disgusting, immoral, despicable and outrageous. They are accorded little more respect than slaves. It’s especially hypocritical, since most of the ‘patriots’ who oppose immigration reform claim to subscribe to individualism, a strong work-ethic, and religious notions of morality which hold precepts like “be your brother’s keeper,” and “if you’ve done it unto the least of these my brethren, you’ve done it unto me.”

I urge all Americans to reconsider their opposition to immigration reform. Let’s keep our golden door open. Let’s acknowledge the valuable contribution made to our country and our economy by all immigrants, legal and otherwise. I don’t advocate this out of some sentimental notion of morality or charity–but rather because it is in our long-term national self-interest.


UPDATE: Detailed study of legalization benefits.


Comments (45 comments)

Tales from the Tubes — 13/​09/​09 | Young Australian Skeptics / September 13th, 2009, 2:22 am / #1

[…] Under the skin of American xenophobia. […]

db0 / September 13th, 2009, 10:27 am / #2

Only the most idealistic anarcho-communists or new-age dilettantes cling to the fantasy of eliminating money, hierarchy, or private property. The rest of the world realizes there will always be haves and have-nots (or have-lesses), and the haves will always attempt to consolidate their advantages regardless of the sociopolitical system. But it is still profoundly unethical to deny equality of opportunity as a foundational principle of our society.

*Sigh* it seems that your reactions to having your anti-anarchist argument pwned on my site and others is to simply become even more of a rabid anti-anarchist, but this time with no basis. It seems you use now almost every blogpost to attack a sociopolitical theory you don't understand or bother to do so. I'm tired of reading you making debunked argument over debunked argument in an attempt to turn people who read your site and do not know better turn away from libertarian socialism. You've become another intellectually bankrupt apologist of the statu quo and are well on the road to propagandism. Unsubscribed.

Chaos / September 13th, 2009, 2:13 pm / #3

Horseshit!
There is nothing "xenophobic" about wanting laws that are already on the books enforced.

Guest / September 13th, 2009, 3:10 pm / #4

"The right-wing mindset is typefied by incredibly short-term thinking and an extremely tiny and fragmented circle of concern. Therefore right-wingers can’t seem to manage much empathy, and they find any excuse to marginalize and dehumanize broad segments of Earth’s population"

Exhibit A. Playing checkers, when the game is chess. Take a deeper look at the laws and the motivations behind them, then you may have something interesting to say. Pointing out that the laws exist is a blindingly uninteresting flash of the obvious.

Exhibit B: "Tenthers." When your party is out-of-power, creatively interpret the Constitution to render the executive branch less powerful, lacking, as conservatives do, the imagination to envision the implications of this interpretation upon their own in-group, should they ever regain power. I also seemed to miss the Constitutional outrage from the right over Bush's "Unitary Executive" policies, signing statements, etc.

darkeros / September 13th, 2009, 5:02 pm / #5

Who are these people that show up on your site, Blacksun? Horseshit? Chaos? this is a BRILLIANT treatise on the state of immigration in our land… and that is all you can say? Wow. Intelligent, thanks for sharing.

The state of immigration is a dark face of reality that people like you and your horseshit like to deny. Enforce the laws already on the books? sorry, those laws are outdated and are about to CHANGE! And I am already celebrating that FACT. Many of us are willing to accept what is really going here and how we use and abuse illegal aliens and keep perpetuating the dirty game. Well, oh thank goodness for Obama is HERE! yeah! and is going to rip the lid off this Pandora's box. Watch the slimmeys slither out as they have with health care reform. But its going to change anyway!

I was an illegal alien years and years ago until I could make my way through the system and become a resident. I have brought up three incredible children as well as taught hundreds of others. I have given much to this country in a big way. Had I not been able to find my way, it would have been a great loss for this country. You are so short sighted in your hatred. And… it matters not, for the 'laws they are a changin'… for the better.

BlackSun / September 13th, 2009, 6:35 pm / #6

So every law on the books is automatically justified, right? Way to look deeper, man…

darkeros / September 13th, 2009, 5:30 pm / #7

Blacksun… just want to comment, this piece is brilliantly written and fashioned. Thank you for it.

I do think people in California are more conscious of what is going on due to our proximity to Mexico and our abuse of those illegally working here in the fields, our homes and in labor jobs. We want our cake and eat it too… we want our cheap labor and not be responsible for it. By addressing this issue, business everywhere is going to be impacted, food prices will go up some, etc., with drawing firmer boundaries for entry and with giving residency to the ones who have been here. We are going to feel the weight of responsibility. And over time it will serve us in big ways, as you outline. It's what growing up and becoming adults is all about. We will lose more of our fat… as we share it with those it belongs to. But hey, we'll look great with our new figure!

As you say, its the same ones fighting against a reform of our immigration laws who are fighting health care reform. "Please do not take my expensive health insurance from me! I want to give my money to those GOOD insurance companies!" "Please, lets get rid of all the illegal immigrants so that I can double what I pay for food and labor jobs and have my economy suffer!"

And yes, how ironic that the majority of people in this country came from illegal immigrants. May the ghosts of the ancestors haunt us all!

BlackSun / September 13th, 2009, 6:41 pm / #8

Yes, exactly. Don't you think the cops could just scoop up all the guys hanging around with work gloves on street corners? It would take about an hour to grab them all on any weekday morning. But the authorities know they are vital to our economy, so they don't do it. Also, those workers are up early and not out to hurt anyone. So enforcement is concentrated on the troublemakers as it should be.

But how much tax revenue would be gained by putting all these people into the mainstream economy? We're looking for ways to bolster Medicare and Social Security, how about adding 12,000,000 new workers to the payroll system? We have screwed ourselves in so many ways by keeping these people off the books. When it comes down to it, it'a a matter of pride. As soon as we make these people legit, we have to start paying them a little more and treating them like human beings. Right now, they can be abused because they can't sue or take any kind of legal action. Americans can always threaten to turn someone in to keep them in line. It's disgraceful.

NRubinstein / September 13th, 2009, 8:01 pm / #9

Thanks for mentioning Reagan and the EMTALA — I got a kick out of that.

orgatta8 / September 14th, 2009, 8:49 pm / #10

Man, I think you live in an ivory tower. One can always find many arguments to a win a debate. Of course there are many good people who may happen to be illegal immigrants. and then the pendulm swings the other way. It is not just xenophobia on a general level– it's plain old observe and conclude on a personal level. You like drug dealing, theft, gangs, graffati, flotsam and jetsam garbage thrown in the streets and urine in the alleys– you got it.
Senator Joe wilson had voted for Federal funds to pay for medical care for illegals because there is such a heavy burden on state budgets. Since the Feds have failed to secure our borders we have to accept responsiblilty at Fed level.. Yeah, EMTALA, all right. Use any emergency room as a source of primary care and you have free "medical insurance." It is the state budgets that end up paying for that or hospitals write the costs off and charge more to health insurance companies.

BlackSun / September 14th, 2009, 11:58 pm / #11

You like drug dealing, theft, gangs, graffati, flotsam and jetsam garbage thrown in the streets and urine in the alleys– you got it.

And no US citizen participates in any of that?

Tell me again who's standing on street corners at 5:30 in the morning looking for an honest day's work for low pay?

It's the poverty and desperation that leads people to bad behavior. When you give them a way to earn a stake in society, they will no longer soil their own backyard. By keeping them on the run from the law, you ensure they will take two or three times as long to rise out of poverty. They will eventually, like the Irish, Polish, and other immigrants did nearly a century ago. Why lose a whole generation in the process?

Angelina / September 21st, 2009, 5:11 am / #12

I am an American, and I resent your article entitled America’s Shame: Hatred of Illegal Immigrants.
Why are you stereotyping all Americans? I thought you were supposed to be an “intellectual.”

Some Americans hate illegal aliens, but not all. Most Americans resent them because of the added burden they place on our schools, hospitals and prisons. It's our money they are stealing!

If I came to your house, camped out in your living room, ate all you food and left garbage everywhere, you would resent it!

You do not understand Mexican culture. Gangs, drugs, alcoholism, violence and graffiti are deeply engrained in Mexican culture. You must be blind if you cannot see that. It’s not our responsibility as Americans to save them from themselves.

Angelina / September 21st, 2009, 5:11 am / #13

I am an American, and I resent your article entitled America’s Shame: Hatred of Illegal Immigrants.
Why are you stereotyping all Americans? I thought you were supposed to be an “intellectual.”

Some Americans hate illegal aliens, but not all. Most Americans resent them because of the added burden they place on our schools, hospitals and prisons. It's our money they are stealing!

If I came to your house, camped out in your living room, ate all you food and left garbage everywhere, you would resent it!

You do not understand Mexican culture. Gangs, drugs, alcoholism, violence and graffiti are deeply engrained in Mexican culture. You must be blind if you cannot see that. It’s not our responsibility as Americans to save them from themselves.

BlackSun / September 21st, 2009, 5:19 am / #14

Just as slavery was a shame on the entire nation, so is the treatment of illegal immigrants. Your stereotyping of Mexican culture is a part of that. No one is camping in my home. Rather, hardworking people have come here at great risk to make our lives better.

David Vaughn / September 15th, 2009, 9:59 pm / #15

Don' t forget that this is a nation that once went to war with itself over whether we have the right to enslave a whole class/race of people. Any move to redress humanitairan inequities or conditions of suffering provokes a response from the self-identified stake-holders in the mythological status quo of American exceptionalism who fear the loss of primacy of their religious/metaphysical belief in contemporary politics. This will come down to a struggle of wills. Do we have the wisdom to know that the world as we have known it (sovereign nation-states acting as self-interested entities) that serves the interests of some but not all is a convenient fiction and that the concerns of all people must ultimately be addressed if we are to bequeathe to our descendents a more harmonious world? What is the virtue of wealth if it is not used to uplift those who are in need? Or should we listen to those unhappy people who fear that the next event, the next policy decision will only serve to make them more unhappy? Illegal immigration will only cease when Mexico and South America are a so much happier place to live that Americans are learning Spanish and sneaking across to the border to participate in those nations' bounty.

AmenASHandF / April 6th, 2010, 12:11 am / #16

they don't need to sneek accross they have the $, denero to fly over & enjoy Cancun & all tthe other resorts Mexico provides those with $. Life's problem is the same thing- the one who knows better is to evil to be fair to the one who doesn't it's called taking advantage…..& that's what everyone does. No one try's hard to be fair. just thinking of one's own pleasure…..so can't blame the Gangs for hating….MS 13 isn't dying soon….how sad….

ben / September 15th, 2009, 11:26 pm / #17

I like your article Sean allthough I found it hard to follow almost like reading christopher Hitchens' one of my favorite authors even though I think he was wrong on the Iraq war . That said I think its important what you said, we don't want illegal alliens affraid to go to a hospital. If their baby is crying and has spinal meningitis no amount of tea is going to help

Black Sun Journal » Racist Xenophobe Responds On Cue / September 15th, 2009, 11:36 pm / #18

[…] knew my article on immigration would get some attention, but I didn’t realize it would be such a textbook example of the […]

James / September 18th, 2009, 1:17 am / #19

Its a laugh a minute at black sheep journal but who cares ? Little Sean Prophet is earning his way to a World Humanist Award…and I hope he gets it.

Now for the " All men are created equal" comment. If there was one line in history that I would like to complete it would be Jeffersons pronouncement in the D of I. "All men are created equal….to form their political communities". Which is exactly what Jefferson meant and exactly what those freeborn Englishmen did. Contrary to Seans 'anything goes' interpretation Jefferson was not talking about political rights else the British soldiers and frontier savages would of been welcomed as fellow citizens. It was a statement defining separation from the Crown…that is all.

But since Sean believes the global egalitarian version let me ask his highness:

How many illegal aliens live at your house, Sean ? Hmmmm?

I thought so. Typical hypocrite.

BlackSun / September 18th, 2009, 1:38 am / #20

James, your argument is typical distortion and ad hominem.

British soldiers were the oppressors, and were the reason for the D of I. So of course they were not included in the statement. It was rather an idealistic vision for an egalitarian society. \”Frontier savages\” were victims of superior force, and they weren't the only ones. May I remind you about a little episode called the Civil War?

It does no good to attack ideals based on their imperfect implementation. On those grounds, why have any political movements or communities at all? They've all failed to live up to their promises. World history has been mostly about power struggles, and the modern world is no exception. I'm asking people to examine their beliefs and behaviors vs. their stated ideals. When they don't measure up, it's time to re-examine behavior and policy. It's hypocritical to benefit from the cheap labor of immigrants, then fail to give them commensurate rights. It's doubly hypocritical to blame them for health care expenses when you don't let them pay taxes or get social security numbers. Then on top of it all, while eating vegetables they've picked and shitting in toilets they've cleaned, you say \”go home.\” Yeah, right.

I never advocated anyone \”living with\” or supporting illegal aliens. I'm talking about giving them a path to citizenship or residency, so that they can provide for themselves.

I don't have unlimited patience for your bitterness and dishonest style of argument. I provided a link to a report with ample evidence that immigrants have raised our standard of living, and we would be worse off without them. I have no problem if you disagree with me based on some sort of counter-evidence. Instead you attack straw men, and then me personally. I'm not impressed.

Engineer-Poet / September 19th, 2009, 1:34 pm / #21

Sean, Sean, Sean….

You've written one hell of a polemic, which shows where your emotions are, but I am dead certain that your head is not engaged.  I really hate to comment on this because I know I'm going to go completely crosswise to your paradigm and have to explain everything, including things that ought to be painfully obvious to you.  On the other hand, leaving you without a firmly-based counterargument would not be doing you any favors, and aren't friends supposed to tell you what you need to hear even if you don't want to hear it?

Why should the mere suspicion of a compassionate stance toward aliens stir such a display of outrage?

Compulsory "compassion", isn't. Whose money is already going to educate the children of these aliens, many of whom don't even bother to teach their children English before they enter school? Whose money is going for their WIC benefits, their dialysis bills when their far higher rates of Type II diabetes destroy their kidneys, their emergency room care that they can't pay even if they have a fixed address to send a bill to?

it was their hero Ronald Reagan who recognized the simple truth that it was un-American to have illegal aliens dying in our streets. It was the paragon of modern conservatism who signed the law requiring universal no-questions-asked emergency-room treatment.

I remember the debate about that law.  It was not about illegal aliens, it was about Americans who were being turned away at ERs because their insurance could not be verified immediately.  Of course, it made the hospitals' problem of obtaining payment even worse.

Free care for illegal aliens was not the intent of this law, but it was certainly an outcome that could have been foreseen and should have been corrected.  The results have been swamped facilities and massive increases in bills.  Costs are shifted to anyone who can pay but doesn't have a negotiated rate with an insurance plan; in other words, the uninsured citizen (who usually has the least ability to pay).  Last, who suffers when the emergency rooms are forced to close because hospitals can't afford the uncompensated care any more?  Here is the LA Times list of closed emergency rooms.  I count 14 on it, and another 54 hospitals which have closed entirely.

(WordPress is complaining that my comment is "too long". Of course, it won't say HOW long is "too long", nor give me a word/character count. That's as bad as not having a preview. C'mon, Sean, I don't remember this site being THIS broken before! Continued in Part II…)

BlackSun / September 19th, 2009, 8:50 pm / #22

Finding win-win solutions is the only true form of compassion, which must be mixed with self-interest if it is to go anywhere. I'm not saying force compassion, I'm saying change our thinking and realize this is not a zero-sum game.

The analysis I linked to shows the economic benefits of illegal immigration. Apparently, nobody read it. Here is the conclusion, posted in full:

Getting the policy right on illegal immigration is important for the welfare of U.S. households. Our simulations show that the difference between the long-run welfare effects for U.S. households of the worst and best policies that we considered is about $260 billion a year in current dollars. This is the welfare gap between the tighter-border-enforcement policy in Simulation 1 (a welfare loss of 0.55 percent) and the liberalized policy with an optimal visa charge in Simulation 7 (a welfare gain of 1.27 percent).14

The major ingredient in good policy is legalization.

This would eliminate smugglers’ fees and other costs associated with illegal entry and allow immigrants (now guest workers rather than illegals) to have higher productivity. Elimination of illegal entry costs would lower the wage required to attract immigrants, while increases in their productivity would raise the value of immigrant labor relative to this wage.

Both these effects of legalization raise the value of immigrant labor relative to the cost of employing it. Our simulations show that this creates a considerable surplus that can be enjoyed by U.S. households.

Would legalization lead to an unmanageable influx of guest workers? We don’t think so.15 In any case, under a program of legal guest workers, numbers could be controlled via the imposition of visa taxes. Our simulations suggest that a visa tax levied on employers at about 31 percent of the cost of employing a guest worker would
keep the number of guest workers on about the same path as illegal immigrants in the business-as-usual forecast. Why 31 percent? This is approximately the value of costs of illegal entry plus the value of the productivity increase that we think would follow from legalization.

The simulations show that the optimal visa tax is about 14 percent. This would allow the number of guest workers to grow beyond the number of illegals in the business-as-usual forecast.

A visa tax of 14 percent strikes the optimal balance between the advantage of capturing surplus value from guest workers and the disadvantage of limiting their numbers. By using a 31 percent visa tax to hold back the number of guest workers, U.S. households forgo too much of the potentially available movement up the
occupational ladder; that is, they lose too much potential gain from the occupation-mix effect.

While 14 percent is the optimal rate for the visa tax, the simulations indicate that the welfare penalty for adopting different rates is not very high. The welfare gain moves within a narrow range of 1.19 percent in Simulation 5 with (no visa tax) to 1.27 percent in Simulation 7 (with the optimal visa tax of 14 percent) and back to 1.15 percent with the employment-neutral visa tax of 31 percent. The major benefit to U.S. households in these three simulations is from legalization and associated productivity increase.

The visa tax is a useful instrument for fine-tuning the number of guest workers, but it is not a major determinant of welfare. Another implication of our study is that focusing exclusively on the fiscal impacts of immigration reform can be misleading. Our model does confirm that an increase in low-skilled guest workers raises the cost of public expenditures to U.S. taxpayers, as many critics of legalization have pointed out. But it also confirms that the positive effects on the broader economy from legalization overwhelm the public-expenditure effects. The
gains to U.S. households from higher wages, investment income, employment, and government
revenue swamp any increases in government spending.

When Congress and the president consider competing proposals to either restrict or legalize low-skilled immigration, they should consider that the economic stakes are high. Compared to either border or interior enforcement, a policy of legalization would, over time, raise the incomes of U.S. workers and their families.

Engineer-Poet / September 20th, 2009, 5:25 pm / #23

The analysis I linked to shows the economic benefits of illegal immigration. Apparently, nobody read it.

I read it, all right. I just dismissed it as laughable, so far from reality you can't even see it from here. Here's a few questions you have to completely remove from your mind to believe it:

  1. If illegal immigrants are such a boon for the economy, why is California in the toilet?
  2. Given the very high use of direct assistance programs by legal Mexican immigrants and their children, how is legalizing the illegal immigrants going to improve the fiscal situation?
  3. Given that the result of the last amnesty was a huge increase in illegal immigration, what is the certain result of a new amnesty? By comparison, what is the proven result of programs to deny employment to illegals and deport them when caught?

Illegal Pakistanis self-deported from the USA when 9/11 shined unwelcome light on them. Illegal Mexicans and Central Americans are self-deporting due to the recession. They can and do go home, all you have to do is apply pressure.

Finding win-win solutions is the only true form of compassion, which must be mixed with self-interest if it is to go anywhere. I'm not saying force compassion, I'm saying change our thinking and realize this is not a zero-sum game.

Compassion for whom? How about some compassion for all the American citizens who lined up for the meatpacking jobs at plants where illegals were removed during raids? Don't you think that people desperate enough to take those jobs deserve to be put ahead of illegal aliens?

I am not sure those jobs should exist at all. Machines don't get repetitive stress injuries, and there are robots under development using X-rays for vision which can see bones and cut meat without human intervention. I am all for eliminating the dirty, dangerous, repetitive unskilled jobs and replacing them with engineers to design the machines, programmers to write the software, and well-paid skilled jobs in manufacturing and field service. We can actually base a decent economy on jobs like that, but going down the cheap-labor road is no good for anyone except the elites who make out well in third-world societies. I have no compassion for those who want a return to serfdom.

BlackSun / September 20th, 2009, 5:51 pm / #24

The analysis was based on a legalization scenario, which doesn't exist yet. So there is no data to back up points 1-3. Your argument amounts to argument from personal incredulity.

Again, you're looking at the results of a broken system and applying that to argue against fixing it. People should be allowed to sell their labor wherever and at whatever price they see fit, provided they are paying payroll taxes to the government where they are working. Open the borders and let a new equilibrium be established. (Your arguments are also typical anti free trade arguments.)

You've ignored the fact that it is the ILLEGAL work that has led to the unfair subsidy and use of public assistance. You've created a separate class of people with no rights, then blamed them for not succeeding to the level of the mainstream of society. This is not good, and it is going to change.

As for the meat-packing jobs, what do you think makes it more likely US citizens could get those jobs?

1) They are being done by illegal aliens at a sub-minimum wage.
2) They are being done by legal guest workers at minimum wage.

In scenario 2, it levels the playing field for US workers. So let's make it happen.

I'm all for replacing shitty jobs with robots. The sooner the better. But I guarantee someone will make an argument that the robots, too, are "stealing jobs." This madness never ends. If you want a free-market, then make it truly free!

Engineer-Poet / October 6th, 2009, 4:40 pm / #25

Note that your Salvadoran friend has already replaced a black janitorial worker who used to make a living wage, and may now be chronically unemployed. When the janitorial jobs are automated, we can either have one unemployed person (assuming the black guy isn't qualified for a robot-maintenance job) or two unemployed people if your illegal Salvadoran friend is allowed to stay. How many people do you want to pay for? How many frustrated people who may turn to crime?

I note that you don't give scenario 3: the jobs are done by US citizens at an above-minimum wage. That is in fact what happens when these plants are raided and the illegals are detained (or flee to avoid arrest). We have millions of unemployed in the country right now, and we sure don't need any illegals, "guest workers" or "refugees" (imported cheap labor with right of residency) with the economy in the shape it's in. All resident immigration other than O visas should be cut off immediately, and any non-citizen receiving public benefits should be offered cash to leave. We can't afford to support them.

If you want to see what a disaster health care "reform" will be, look at this census data: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/hlthins/historic/h
Extending insurance to all will be a massive subsidy to non-citizens and their children ("anchor babies" are counted as citizens in that table). The nation cannot afford to extend middle-class benefits to people whose total income can't even pay for their own personal expenses and schooling for their children. Importing more and more people whose high-school drop out rate is 40% even after 4 generations is a ticket to third-world nationhood. We have to send them all home, NOW.

Engineer-Poet / September 19th, 2009, 8:46 pm / #26

How much "compassion" is due to people who account for 25% of a city's crime… and that's just the ones who decided to leave?

This oozing pustule of tribal hostility erupts from unseen depths of the paleoconservative psyche.

No, it erupts from the gross VIOLATION OF THE RULE OF LAW. Illegal aliens should not be in the country, period. There are lawful procedures for gaining admittance and retaining permission to remain, and a lawful procedure for removal of people who violate those terms. The former have been violated by illegal aliens, and the latter has been obstructed by people with interests such as cheap, pliable labor. The hostility comes from people who suffer the consequences such as higher taxes and crime and lower wages, yet being expected to obey the law while the illegals flout it by their very presence. Double standards make people angry. They have every right to be. And now comes a new program which will multiply the handouts to illegals unless specific prohibitions are put in place… and you wonder why some are insisting upon them? Obama himself has connected immigration with the health-care issue, and it's reportedly the House Hispanic Caucus which is aggrieved that Obama is moving on citizenship verification for eligibility. Why would they be upset if they didn't intend all along for average Americans to pay to treat illegals?

You can see how the pro-immigration dishonesty works. I'm much closer to average America than you are; I see this all the time

we must admit it’s extremely hypocritical in a ‘meritocracy’ to deny people the right to work wherever their skills are in demand. Free competition–and that includes the right to sell your labor–is the hallmark of free enterprise.

You fail to mention that these workers come with demands of their own. Roads, housing, the aforementioned health care, other social services (including policing), education for any kids they bear or smuggle….

Who's paying for this, Sean? If you paid to build an addition on your house only to find it occupied by squatters you weren't allowed to remove, wouldn't you be angry? Illegal immigration is just the same thing on a larger scale. Wouldn't you be even more angry if you were competing against the squatters for the jobs you could do? That's what low-skilled American citizens have to face. Janitorial work in Los Angeles used to be unionized and pay a living wage. Today it's scraping minimum but for some reason SEIU can't organize squat. Meanwhile, the average janitor has changed from a US-born black to an illegal immigrant Hispanic. Coincidence? Excuse me while I laugh..

(and continued again in Part III.)

Engineer-Poet / September 19th, 2009, 8:46 pm / #27

How much "compassion" is due to people who account for 25% of a city's crime… and that's just the ones who decided to leave?

This oozing pustule of tribal hostility erupts from unseen depths of the paleoconservative psyche.

No, it erupts from the gross VIOLATION OF THE RULE OF LAW. Illegal aliens should not be in the country, period. There are lawful procedures for gaining admittance and retaining permission to remain, and a lawful procedure for removal of people who violate those terms. The former have been violated by illegal aliens, and the latter has been obstructed by people with interests such as cheap, pliable labor. The hostility comes from people who suffer the consequences such as higher taxes and crime and lower wages, yet being expected to obey the law while the illegals flout it by their very presence. Double standards make people angry. They have every right to be. And now comes a new program which will multiply the handouts to illegals unless specific prohibitions are put in place… and you wonder why some are insisting upon them? Obama himself has connected immigration with the health-care issue, and it's reportedly the House Hispanic Caucus which is aggrieved that Obama is moving on citizenship verification for eligibility. Why would they be upset if they didn't intend all along for average Americans to pay to treat illegals?

You can see how the pro-immigration dishonesty works. I'm much closer to average America than you are; I see this all the time

we must admit it’s extremely hypocritical in a ‘meritocracy’ to deny people the right to work wherever their skills are in demand. Free competition–and that includes the right to sell your labor–is the hallmark of free enterprise.

You fail to mention that these workers come with demands of their own. Roads, housing, the aforementioned health care, other social services (including policing), education for any kids they bear or smuggle….

Who's paying for this, Sean? If you paid to build an addition on your house only to find it occupied by squatters you weren't allowed to remove, wouldn't you be angry? Illegal immigration is just the same thing on a larger scale. Wouldn't you be even more angry if you were competing against the squatters for the jobs you could do? That's what low-skilled American citizens have to face. Janitorial work in Los Angeles used to be unionized and pay a living wage. Today it's scraping minimum but for some reason SEIU can't organize squat. Meanwhile, the average janitor has changed from a US-born black to an illegal immigrant Hispanic. Coincidence? Excuse me while I laugh..

(and continued again in Part III.)

BlackSun / September 19th, 2009, 9:18 pm / #28

"Violation of the rule of law."

Which benefits Americans who enjoy lower prices based on cheap labor. Do you think there would be 12 million illegals here if someone wasn't benefiting? If employers were forced to pay real wages to these twelve million, it would actually raise prices and result in many of the illegals losing their jobs and/or leaving. A new equilibrium would be established once obtaining legal residency became a realistic goal.

So giving them a path to legal residency and cracking down on employers who break the rules is better than letting the situation fester. There are two separate arguments here. The economic one, and the one based on empathy. Both argue for immigration reform.

The whole idea that we have to pay for their health care is a sham. If they were here legally, and being paid minimum wage under Obama's plan, they would also be forced to pay into the health system.

You guys create the problem and then block the solution.

The house/squatter analogy is completely false. Even if they have twelve people sleeping in a one-bedroom apartment, Illegal aliens pay their own way. They pay rent and they pay sales taxes. You are not being rational here.

No one wants to do janitorial work. They do it because they have to. Soon it will be robots. So even more reason to get the illegal problem resolved and get those with unskilled jobs moving up the skill ladder.

Engineer-Poet / September 20th, 2009, 6:10 pm / #29

"Violation of the rule of law."

Which benefits Americans who enjoy lower prices based on cheap labor. Do you think there would be 12 million illegals here if someone wasn't benefiting?

Ah, finally we get down to "cui bono?" Yes, someone is benefitting. Those are overwhelmingly the elites, who have to pay less for labor. (I guess you might consider yourself to be part of this group.) The overall economy expands, but most of the expansion goes to the illegal aliens themselves. Wages and benefits are driven down at the low end of the skill scale (and also at the high end by programs such as the H1-B visa program, which is another story and hits me directly). The net result is that the low-skilled suffer. The economy as a whole suffers from lower average productivity and wages, and becomes more like a third-world nation with even more lopsided income distribution.

If employers were forced to pay real wages to these twelve million, it would actually raise prices and result in many of the illegals losing their jobs and/or leaving.

So your solution is to allow them to work without labor protections, because letting them have a low-paid, dirty, dangerous job is more "compassionate"?

So giving them a path to legal residency and cracking down on employers who break the rules is better than letting the situation fester.

Except all you do with an amnesty is break the budget by making all the former illegals eligible for assistance. Meanwhile, as long as the border remains open the employers will just import a new crop of illegals to work at the same old crap wages (and break the budget even worse by turning the current crop of illegals into a new class of unemployables).

I think it's more compassionate to send them home. Let them find their own way of life. If they can follow the industrial and information society model and desire to, let them. If they cannot or don't want to, they can stay as they are. The world can be diverse without turning the USA into Bolivia.

If they were here legally, and being paid minimum wage under Obama's plan, they would also be forced to pay into the health system.

"Pay into", not "pay for". They would have to be subsidized because their income is so low, and that subsidy comes from the rest of the country.

The house/squatter analogy is completely false. Even if they have twelve people sleeping in a one-bedroom apartment, Illegal aliens pay their own way.

No they don't. Do the property taxes which pay for police and schools and roads go up with occupancy? Do the assessments which pay for water, sewer and all the other infrastructure essentials? They are freeloaders, and if you aren't angry you are either in denial or benefitting.

No one wants to do janitorial work. They do it because they have to.

If you pay a living wage, people will do it. While I believe that there are jobs that should not exist, there are no jobs that Americans won't do.

Engineer-Poet / September 20th, 2009, 6:10 pm / #30

"Violation of the rule of law."

Which benefits Americans who enjoy lower prices based on cheap labor. Do you think there would be 12 million illegals here if someone wasn't benefiting?

Ah, finally we get down to "cui bono?" Yes, someone is benefitting. Those are overwhelmingly the elites, who have to pay less for labor. (I guess you might consider yourself to be part of this group.) The overall economy expands, but most of the expansion goes to the illegal aliens themselves. Wages and benefits are driven down at the low end of the skill scale (and also at the high end by programs such as the H1-B visa program, which is another story and hits me directly). The net result is that the low-skilled suffer. The economy as a whole suffers from lower average productivity and wages, and becomes more like a third-world nation with even more lopsided income distribution.

If employers were forced to pay real wages to these twelve million, it would actually raise prices and result in many of the illegals losing their jobs and/or leaving.

So your solution is to allow them to work without labor protections, because letting them have a low-paid, dirty, dangerous job is more "compassionate"?

So giving them a path to legal residency and cracking down on employers who break the rules is better than letting the situation fester.

Except all you do with an amnesty is break the budget by making all the former illegals eligible for assistance. Meanwhile, as long as the border remains open the employers will just import a new crop of illegals to work at the same old crap wages (and break the budget even worse by turning the current crop of illegals into a new class of unemployables).

I think it's more compassionate to send them home. Let them find their own way of life. If they can follow the industrial and information society model and desire to, let them. If they cannot or don't want to, they can stay as they are. The world can be diverse without turning the USA into Bolivia.

If they were here legally, and being paid minimum wage under Obama's plan, they would also be forced to pay into the health system.

"Pay into", not "pay for". They would have to be subsidized because their income is so low, and that subsidy comes from the rest of the country.

The house/squatter analogy is completely false. Even if they have twelve people sleeping in a one-bedroom apartment, Illegal aliens pay their own way.

No they don't. Do the property taxes which pay for police and schools and roads go up with occupancy? Do the assessments which pay for water, sewer and all the other infrastructure essentials? They are freeloaders, and if you aren't angry you are either in denial or benefitting.

No one wants to do janitorial work. They do it because they have to.

If you pay a living wage, people will do it. While I believe that there are jobs that should not exist, there are no jobs that Americans won't do.

BlackSun / September 20th, 2009, 6:44 pm / #31

So your solution is to allow them to work without labor protections, because letting them have a low-paid, dirty, dangerous job is more "compassionate"?

When did I say that? I said make it legal for them to work as any other employee with a social security number, W-2, and all legal labor protections. Jesus!

Except all you do with an amnesty is break the budget by making all the former illegals eligible for assistance.

Why is it that you act as if there's no other side to the ledger? First, public assistance is only available if you aren't working. And what we're talking about is some form of guest worker program, not indiscriminate legalization of people who are leeching off the system. Who's proposing that?

Please make the argument against what is actually being proposed, not some nightmare worst-case-scenario you've cooked up.

Again, you totally dismissed the analysis, which is ridiculous. It was even done by a conservative think-tank, the Cato institute. The only reason you dismiss it is because you don't like the conclusion, which is that legalization would benefit American society to the tune of over $200 billion. All your arguments are therefore moot.

Engineer-Poet / September 19th, 2009, 8:47 pm / #32

Heck, let's talk about one of life's absolute necessities: water. California has a huge water crisis, and the political inability to shut off diversions to grow crops in a desert may soon spell the end of several Coho salmon runs. The major interests opposing the Coho are… rich farmers and their illegal alien workers. (Yes, the workers are largely illegals. US citizens and legal immigrants have access to social services rather than taking such work at minimum wage, so they do.) In order to keep the farmers and their politically-potent spokespeople satisfied, the species may take a huge blow and some ecosystems may be permanently damaged. Deporting the illegals would get rid of the need to keep them employed. How much biodiversity are you willing to sacrifice for the sake of ethnic diversity in California?

California has a budget crisis too. Legal Mexican immigrants are heavy users of means-tested assistance. (I guess that "immigrant work ethic" disappears when it is no longer necessary.) K-12 education is the biggest part of the California state budget, and a majority of Californian children have non-US-born parents. These expenses would disappear if the immigrants went home. Why don't you care about the biggest single fiscal problem your state faces? Oh, we can also go into the vastly higher incarceration rates of these immigrants and their descendants compared to the (erstwhile?) majority population, and the costs from both that and the crime which leads to it.

Hispanic incarceration rates in the USA are nearly 3 times that of whites (Table 11, page 8). There might be worse neighbors, but that's damning with faint praise.

Speaking of crime, you might want to ask the Bologna family of San Francisco about that. Well, except for half of them now being dead because of SF's sanctuary policy, that is. I'm glad that wasn't you and your boys; don't you have any desire to learn from this event and stop importing a new criminal class?

Anyway, before I write a book (I didn't even get into your Salvadoran friend and whether he is a bigamist), I just wanted to let you know that citing facts is not racist, neither is opposing the entry of people who are parastic, criminal or just culturally alien (would you expect THEM to open THEIR doors, clinics and food pantries to any Americans who wanted to drop in?), and citing Emma Lazarus' poem as the be-all and end-all of US immigration policy has to be one of the lamest yet most common shibboleths on the open-borders side of the issue. Who enacted that poem, anyway?

BlackSun / September 19th, 2009, 9:08 pm / #33

Ah, someone is eating that food from those "rich farmers." What will they do when the food stops being grown?

If those workers "went home" who would do those jobs? I don't think you understand what kind of essential niche they fill right now. So we pay for them with public assistance. If they left, the costs would be higher as we had to pay higher wages to fill their positions. What you don't get is that this is a problem of externalities, just like fossil energy. The illegal aliens are a hidden subsidy for certain industries. If you really want to fix the problem, lets get the costs out in the open by legalizing them.

If Americans were going south to do menial jobs for low pay that allowed Mexicans to live better lives, I'd bet my bottom dollar they'd be let in.

BlackSun / September 19th, 2009, 9:29 pm / #34

One more thing, E-P, your table shows that African American crime is far above Hispanic crime, which is closer to the level of whites. Crime correlates more closely with poverty and low education–not race.

Similar arguments could have been made a century ago about Irish, Polish, or Italian immigrants. Come on.

Engineer-Poet / September 20th, 2009, 6:59 pm / #35

One more thing, E-P, your table shows that African American crime is far above Hispanic crime, which is closer to the level of whites.

Yes, so? Should we import a new class of low-skilled laborers who have about three times the criminal propensity of native whites, just because they are only about half as criminal as blacks? What's the excuse for driving up the total amount of crime?

Crime correlates more closely with poverty and low education–not race.

Does it? I couldn't find any data on crime rates versus SES over different ethnic groups, but since you have made that claim I'm going to ask you to support it.

Of course, even if it is true, the crime rates would only equalize in the long run if Mexicans assimilated to the norms of the majority population. They do not. Even in the fourth generation in the USA, in 1990 Mexican-Americans had a 41% high-school dropout rate and only a 9.6% rate of post-secondary degrees. The corresponding figures for non-Mexican Americans of all races (blacks included!) were 23.5% and 45.1%, respectively.

So in a nutshell, what you want us immigration skeptics to do is:

  • Legalize the permanent presence of a group with much lower education and income and much higher criminality, instead of deporting it.
  • Wait more than 4 generations for this minority to assimilate in education and culture, hopefully leading to parity in crime rates.
  • No. No, I am not going to accept that. I am not going to subject my children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren to the burden of more crime and more taxes to cope with criminal behavior in the hope that the problem might abate… someday. These people must be denied jobs, denied benefits and send home along with their children (regardless of nation of birth). Nothing else is fair to the citizens and taxpayers of the USA.

    BTW, your comment-paging system is full of fail. If I click to get the second page of comments I get nothing (all comments vanish), and since it's a Javascript link I can't even open it in a new tab. If I reload the page to try to get the comment links back I am returned to a screen with comment text from some time ago, and I can't get rid of it. Not even purging cookies helps.

    The auto-hiding of replies to replies is pretty damned annoying too. This is no way to try to hold a discussion, and I won't put myself through software purgatory just to try to straighten you out on the facts.

BlackSun / September 20th, 2009, 7:23 pm / #36

I know Intense Debate can be buggy. But I wanted to implement threaded comments and it seemed a decent way to go. Now WordPress bought them, so I assume they will eventually fix the problem.

It's OK, I don't think we will agree on this one. But I still respect you and think you know a lot about energy environment issues even if we don't see eye to eye on immigration. Take care.

AmenASHandFree / October 9th, 2009, 10:20 am / #37

THUMBS UP TO dbo….

AmenASHandFree / October 9th, 2009, 10:24 am / #38

CRIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POVERTY & LOW EDUCATION….IT'S HOW THAT PERSONS MIND & EMOTIONS ARE FUNCTIONIG. NOT EVERYONE IN POVERTY & WITH A LOW EDUCATION COMMIT CRIMES…DUH ! THERE ARE ENOUGH RICH, HIGHLY EDUCATED INDIVIDUALS COMMITING THEM EVERYDAY THROUGH OUT HISTORY…..& GET AWAY WITH IT EVERYDAY, CENTURY AFTER CENTURY…THIS ETSABLISHMENT IS THE BIGGEST OF THEM ALL….

AmenASHandFree / October 9th, 2009, 1:27 pm / #39

The rich do enjoy & take advantage of the bounties of poor Nations, Countries, World. I am a Mexican-American always being reminded growing up how we we'ren't from this Country. Notice how I write & talk? I am not any diffferent than the black slaves children living in this Nation, Establishment, Free-Mason Invention & Idealism. The survival of humanity depends on being fair, letting go of fear, returning what belong to who it belongs to. SO GRINGOS WHY DON'T YOU BE THE ONES TO STOP HAVING THE BABIES & GIVE US OUR LANDBACK? WE WERE HERE FIRST. YOUR PARENTS AFTER.

jackatthekilns / October 9th, 2009, 5:05 pm / #40

America has always had a problem with nativism. Whenever there is a large scale wave of immigration from
anywhere, many Americans get frightened that something horrible might happen or whatever. They then tend to
find reasons to justify this animosity. It might be that the immigrants bring a new religion or language, or the classic
"they're taking our jobs" which has been true at times. This time, there is actually a legitimate reason for not liking
the fact that a certain group of people have come here. Unfortunately, the cause is being championed by many for
whom this is just another excuse to be upset, even if it is the best one in history. There is an element of racism in
the anger over illegal immigration. Too many people are concerned about aspects of Hispanic immigration that have
nothing to do with their legal status (Language, religion, jobs, etc). That does not mean no one should be concerned
about a large scale subversion of federal law. It is perfectly right and just for someone to stand up and say that
the laws on the books should upheld. Personally, I would prefer changing the laws to make it easier to come to this
country legally. I welcome people from different cultures(mainly for their food I admit, but still). But that doesn't mean
I am willing to countenance illegality. Ultimately, what you have done is make a point about the wrong thing.
Nowhere in your article is any justification for someone breaking federal law. You simply didn't address it and that
is a major failing.

AmenASHandFree / October 11th, 2009, 9:17 pm / #41

FEDERAL LAW IS MAN MADE,….COMING HERE IS MAN MADE…KILLING THE NATIVES & MAKING A SYSTEM OF LIVING TO FOLLOW THAT IS GREEK & ROMAN IN TRADITION IS RUDE….STAYING HERE AND TREATING THE NATIVES AS YOU GRINGOS DO IS RUDE….BUT ACTUALY IT ISN'T THE GRINGOS ANYMORE WHO MISTREAT THE NATIVES….MANY OF THE NATIVES ARE CHILDREN / TEENS WHO R ANGRY IN SYSTEMS OR GROUPS CONNECTED TO OTHER INTERNATIONAL GROUPS KNOWN AS GANGS…WAKE UP…YOU FEED THE PROBLEM….U R UR OWN ENEMY…U R UR OWN PROBLEM…NOT THE EITHER WAY AROUND…GANGS R DISFUNCTIONAL ANGRY HURT OFFENDED SO MUCH MORE THAN THIS KIDS, READY TO DO WHAT EVER THEY WANT TO U BECAUSE U MEAN NOTHING TO THEM ! ! !! BYE BYE RUDE CONFUSED STOBURN PEOPLE….BAD MANNERS DON'T GET U ANYWHERE – OH WAIT IT DOES THIS NATION IS FOUNDED ON BAD MANNERS KILLING & TAKING OVER THIS LAND…WOE ALMOST FORGOT MY POINT

Najam-us Sehar / November 12th, 2009, 10:21 pm / #42

Simply loved it. Being an immigrant I totally understand how harsh life gets just because of these man-made borders.

drug rehab Tempe / November 30th, 2010, 2:32 pm / #43

i know that we ate a conservative nation. i don't if it really characterized xenophobia. i see lot of young people that are racists, but the middle age and old population is tolerant with the other nations. i think that today is a lack of education, that is the main problem, the rest came from itself: drugs, sexual abuse, booze, improper behavior.

Doris Tracey / April 18th, 2015, 12:32 pm / #44

Why are these people running from their own country and government? If the president of Mexico is a part of the United Nations then something should be done to keep these people from running to the united states of the world. I would get rid of any anti leader that betrays the people in any country, Island or continent. The central banks like the IMF,BIS and the Federal Reserve are controlling the world and economic supply. The money changers need to be exposed and become outcast of society. If there was not absolute evil in this world we wouldn't have to be concerned with open borders and we all could share the abundant life and the dream of brotherhood and sisterhood. Many people go to Mexico for vacation. Why can't the money from the tourist stay in the country to help their own people economically? Maybe in time Mexico will become a part of the United States of a miracle. Our taxpayers are paying for these poor people and we may soon become as poor as they are. Without economic freedom, there is no freedom.

Doris Tracey / April 19th, 2015, 11:49 am / #45

One more comment. I don't like to call these people illegal aliens. Sounds like they come from outer space. I like to use the words illegal immigrants, and many of them are really refugees. How are they going to pay taxes when their pay is so small it'll make them flee back to mexico. I think Barack Obama wants them to stay and vote so these people can vote democrat. Our president is clearly working for papa bear Bush's New World Order. He is destroying the republican form of government and is acting like a despot. Our Government is no longer and for many decades not serving the American people. I think our government is involved with slave trade.

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