Article

Fifty Years of Keeping the Flame

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If we keep our pride
Though paradise is lost
We will pay the price
But we will not count the cost
–Neil Peart, Bravado

Pride has always been a bugaboo for the faithful. It’s too close for comfort to their bêtes-noir the human ego and human will–as opposed to the will of God, the divine law and the lawgiver. In ascended master parlance, pride is what leads people to rely on their "carnal mind" and human intellect, rather than "tuning in" to their "I AM Presence" or following the "word" of God. Other than hopelessly broad generalizations, church teaching on the "carnal mind" provides no method to determine whether the inner voice that’s speaking is the former or the latter. No matter how much they cling to the idea of embodying their "divine self," believers use the same tools as the rest of us to decide what’s right and wrong: their inner critic, experience, community standards, and human law. The much touted "I AM Presence" is an illusion borne of archaic metaphysical dualism mixed with contemporary spiritual pride.

Stripped of its mystical implications, pride remains a double edged sword. As self-esteem, it gets us up in the morning, gives us confidence and keeps us convinced we are on the right track. But pride is also what prevents us from realizing when we are in need of a mid-course correction. Bravado–foolish pride in its most extreme form (along with its ugly cousin self-justification) makes us charge ahead, no matter how badly things are going. It’s what keeps gamblers up all night at the tables, even when they are playing with borrowed money.

Today, it is clearly with great bravado that followers of the ascended masters celebrate the golden anniversary of the founding of the Summit Lighthouse, otherwise known as Church Universal and Triumphant (CUT). It was actually August 7, 1958 when my dad Marcus Lyle Prophet (known as Mark) took the fateful "dictations" from seven ascended masters that led to the organization’s founding. Having broken with his former compatriots at the Bridge to Freedom, the new dictations served an audacious political purpose as his "coming out" to his supporters. In doing so, he had to denounce Geraldine Innocenti, the messenger he had formerly followed. Ascended master students have always played "follow the messenger," so by this act my dad was staking his claim to a portion of the fragmented movement; the leftovers from the remnants of the Mighty I AM cult which had its heyday in the 1930s. Not only did he have to establish himself as an authentic "accredited messenger," he had to fight off internal challenges: His assistant Frances Ekey began editing his dictations after the fact, much to his chagrin. Eventually he built a fiercely loyal organization and cemented himself as its "Bishop" and unquestioned leader.

I remember the occasion when we discovered the foundational tape in 1989. It was in conjunction with a fund-raising drive I spearheaded called "Save Our Teachings." We needed about $200,000 to convert and restore thousands of hours of old audio and video tapes that were deteriorating. So we went back into the vaults and pulled out some of the oldest reels to show members just what they were paying for. Among them was this previously unheard founding dictation of the Summit Lighthouse. We played it to the congregation and they were spellbound. I had a different reaction. Let’s just say that dad had gotten a lot better over the years at both public speaking and giving dictations. I recall being shocked at his poor early delivery, since I’d only heard him speak in the late ’60s to early ’70s–after he had mastered his craft.

It stands to reason. Dad was always good with people. In his first career, he supported his first family for years as a salesman. But giving dictations is a lot more complex than schmoozing. It’s performance art, and for him practice made perfect. However history might rate his subdued but outré inaugural oratory from 50 years ago, it was apparently good enough to convince his small group of followers. Not only did he need to act as a credible messenger of the ascended master pantheon, he had to distinguish himself from his predecessors, while not straying too far from the occult "canon."

In considering his legacy, we need to look not only at where he came from and what motivated him, but also at what he taught and where he led his followers. Once my mother Elizabeth Clare (who was 20 years younger) joined him, and lent her youth and charisma to the organization, they became "The Two Witnesses" from Revelation–and an unstoppable force in the budding new age movement. Unfortunately for him, he did not live to see the success he’d always longed for. To be sure, life for my parents (and our family) in the ’60s was comfortable if unconventional, but The Summit Lighthouse had not yet become a worldwide movement. All the pieces were in place, though, and upon my father’s death the organization expanded five to ten fold. Their timing was just right. In 1973 it was not too late to catch the spirit of the Age of Aquarius left over from the ’60s. And the specter of cult mind control had not yet splashed its way onto the pages and screens of the collective consciousness. That changed in November 1978, after the Jonestown murder-suicides.

It was a spiritual honeymoon period. People had been tripping for years on pot, LSD, mescaline, and psilocybin, and all forms of outlandish social experiments. Most of them failed.  Some, such as the Children of God and to a lesser extent the Hare Krishas and others, degenerated into lawsuits and scandals. Others morphed into "respectable" organizations. Erhard’s est, for example, eventually became Landmark Forum. But after Jonestown, all were tarred with the "cult" brush.

I have mixed feelings about the word "cult." On the one hand, it’s a pejorative that ends discussion. If a group is a cult, it’s generally viewed as destructive no matter what positive things it may have accomplished. On the other hand, the term describes a group dynamic and hierarchical structure that often excludes individuality and critical thought. It covers a whole tangled mess of power relationships whereby a formerly autonomous individual can take on the beliefs and mannerisms of the group, gradually losing normal social function until they feel unable to leave.

There are elements of "cultishness" even in large corporations. But what made new religious movements in the ’60s and ’70s so powerful was that many people who joined had scarcely known any other life. They rebelled against their parents and plunged headlong into such cults at 16 or 18–or like myself and other CUT kids, were raised there. Many of us had to leave twice.

Two things kept people there: Camaraderie and philosophical investment. Some of the things taught by my parents were so outlandish as to defy any reasonable explanation. Given such extraordinary beliefs, we were either completely crazy, or it must be true. Much as current church leadership might wish otherwise, they cannot explain away some of the patently false, downright offensive, and ultimately insane things my parents believed. As they cheerfully breeze past their golden anniversary, they want to ignore their sordid foundations and trip into the light fantastic and a bright future of love, prayer, world service, and a swelling of the ranks. But as I was quoted recently in the  Livingston Enterprise, "the bones of failed prophecy are buried up in Mol Heron canyon." Indeed, the very sacred land in the "Heart of the Inner Retreat" bears testament to the paranoia and fear which gripped their former messenger. And it didn’t begin with her. As she recounted on numerous occasions, my father told her when he was practically on his deathbed in 1973 that she should move the organization "high in the Rocky mountains, and make preparations to survive." So it took Saint Germain about 13 years (until 1986) to catch up to his messenger’s deathbed instructions.

The point is, that there is absolutely no way to avoid the contradictions and inconsistencies. There is no way to separate the "good" parts of the teaching from the pathological. Much of that pathology has now been de-emphasized and shunted to the back burner in favor of feel-good new-age pablum. But there was a time when hardcore right-wing anti-communist, borderline racist, homophobic, sci-fi and alien invasion scenarios were much discussed–even in dictations. I know, I grew up immersed in it. The Summit Lighthouse in its early days was like a theological, historical, and sociological Cuisinart, and when it spilled over and made the inevitable mess, raising logical contradictions, it was always neatly explained away.

I have to say that looking back on this stuff now, it’s shocking and it literally beggars belief. I’m frankly almost so embarrassed by it I’m reluctant to post it here. But it’s better that people know the truth:

  Some unusual beliefs and practices of Mark and Elizabeth Prophet–Compiled by Tatiana Prophet

  • Mark Prophet was to have once lived as Lot, the Pharaoh Ikhnaton, Aesop, Origen of Alexandria, Saint Mark, Saladin of the Crusades, King Clovis of France, Lancelot du Lac, Hiawatha, Louis the XIV, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow and the murdered Czarevich Nicholas Romanov. After his life as Mark Prophet, he was said to have become the ascended master Lanello.
  • Elizabeth Clare Prophet was to have once lived as Lot’s wife, Nefertiti, the Tibetan mystic Yeshe Tsogyal, Saint Martha, Queen Guinevere, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Clare, Queen Marie Antoinette, Empress Elisabeth of Austria, and the murdered Czarevna Tatiana Romanova of Russia.
  • Their son, Sean, supposedly lived as Solomon, Tycho Brahe and Franz Lehar; their daughter Erin, as the Prophet Gideon and Gandhi; their daughter Moira, as John F. Kennedy; and their daughter Tatiana, as Czar Peter the Great and the "messenger" Helena Roerich.
  • Mark and Elizabeth Prophet said they were the Two Witnesses prophesied in the Bible.
  • Elizabeth Prophet’s titles expanded to Vicar of Christ, the Mother of the Flame and Guru Ma, a name "bestowed" on her by Padhma Sambhava, an 8th Century Tibetan saint who, as an ascended master, announced "through" Elizabeth in 1979 that she had "balanced 100 percent of her karma."
  • Elizabeth Clare Prophet also made pronouncements about the past embodiments of her enemies. Gregory Mull, a former follower who successfully sued her in 1986 for fraud and intentional infliction of emotional distress, was supposedly responsible for bringing homosexuality to earth from another planet.
  • Mole people: Mark Prophet used to talk to his inner circle about "mole people," a subterranean race that would kidnap humans and force them to work for them. This is pretty similar to a 1956 movie calledThe Mole People."
  • Keepers of the Flame lessons made reference to "Black Dog Men."
  • Elizabeth Clare Prophet at one point said the earth was hollow and contained an underground civilization, citing a 1908 book by Willis George Emerson called "The Smoky God." The book claimed to be telling a true story about an explorer who found the society at the center of the earth.
  • In his book "The Soulless One," Mark Prophet tells of a race of humans without souls who were created by aliens known as "fallen ones." They were also known as Mechanization Man. The "fallen ones" had superior technology and mesmerized and subjugated those living on earth, mating with them and yet somehow using their technology to create a type of human that did not have a "threefold flame." The threefold flame was the divine spark of God, a sort of personal Holy Trinity with pink, yellow and blue flames symbolizing love, wisdom and power, respectively.
  • The Jews and Arabs are fighting in the Middle East because they are carrying forward the war they waged on the planet Maldek, which they blew up with nuclear weapons. It is now the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. This race of warlike peoples are called Laggards because they are old souls who have balanced enough karma to keep reembodying, but they hang around fighting each other and not making progress toward the “ascension.”
  • Rock and roll musicians are fallen angels who spent centuries locked in hell and were prophesied in the bible as those who looked "like women" and were unleashed in the 20th Century (for some reason). That’s why they’re so angry.
  • Based on the writings of Antony Sutton, W. Cleon Skousen, Gary Allen and others, The International Capitalist Communist Conspiracy: the Jewish bankers in Europe, including the Rothschilds, got together in the 19th century with power brokers in all countries and planned to control the world through a combination of capitalist and totalitarian means.
  • The flood of Noah was the sinking of the legendary continent of Atlantis, which sank because of the misuse of technology, which was also tied in with the metaphor of the Tower of Babel, symbolizing man’s hubris.
  • Another fabled ancient continent, Lemuria, was destroyed because of genetic engineering and misuses of the sacred fire, another term for sexual sins and perversions.
  • In the 1980s, Elizabeth Clare Prophet put the word out among followers that California was going to endure a massive earthquake and be separated from the continent after 1986. All "lightbearers" should move away from the coasts. Many current and former followers are still afraid to live in California because of her pronouncements. Many people who did not want to live in Montana moved to Minneapolis, which was unofficially sanctioned by Elizabeth as safe.
  • She also famously predicted a coming nuclear war, telling her worldwide congregation that the Soviet Union would attack the West if the United States did not prepare a space-based defense system as well as a nationwide civil defense system involving nuclear shelters for all citizens. In 1986, she set a date of January 1, 1987, but kept pushing it back until April 1990 so that church members could finish their nuclear fallout shelters. Later, when there was no attack, she told followers that the prophecy changed because this community of no more than 5,000 had built their nuclear shelters.
  • Shifts in teaching were called "new dispensations." They allowed for inconsistencies to occur. Many times there was a lag time between the close-knit community starting a new dispensation and the worldwide community hearing about it. This applied mostly to diet, such as the various phases of vegetarianism and non-vegetarianism, sugar and sugar-free foods, and the “fad diets” that would take over the community, such as the No. 1 (raw food) diet and the macrobiotic diet. Some followers attending quarterly conferences would be shocked to hear that "Mother" no longer was a vegetarian and now ate meat.
  • During the mid to late 1990s, Elizabeth Prophet often called her staff and community into their chapel for "karmic readings." People would come to the altar, and she publicly claimed to reveal things about their past lives. Sometimes her revelations included serious crimes such as murder or rape, or past spiritual transgressions that had caused shame to the "brotherhood."
  • Labors of Hercules: From the late 1980s through the mid-1990s, marathon decree sessions took on a new meaning. Normally reserved for quarterly conferences, lengthy decree sessions became all-day and all-night affairs, every day for weeks. They would last until the devoted would complete the "Labors of Hercules" that they were assigned. These labors included the task of defeating, through decrees and ceremonial sword swinging, millions of aliens in a ghost-like alternate reality who were usually headed toward the church’s ranch to attack it. Many times there were 144,000 spaceships with 144,000 aliens, and the faithful would be assigned 144 Astreas, which at their fastest speed, took about four hours to complete.

Reading these transparent absurdities leads me to wonder what–if anything–my parents could have ever said or done that would have convinced people they had finally "lost it." My conclusion is that as messengers of the ascended masters, they could have said anything at all. Absolutely anything. (Well, except possibly denying the teachings).

During the "Labors of Hercules," a friend of mine who also had close access to mom went up to one of the work crews. He had decided to play a pretty ballsy prank: He told them that he had just come from an audience with "mother" and he had the new "Labor" and people were supposed to write it down. He then proceeded to make up the most ridiculous story possible. He told the crew that mother had seen a large gang of "lesbian biker chicks" who were about to attack the Ranch on the "astral plane." He embellished the story heartily and the crew of 15 or 20 staff members were furiously taking notes. He kept going for 5 or 10 minutes until everyone had filled a page or two. Then he laughed and said "just kidding." People were livid. They had just been had. Curiously, most did not get the message. Their cognitive dissonance prevented it–and they kept right on with the shelter building and their feverish decreeing.

I’m continuously amazed at the ability of members to cling to these beliefs and self-justify their investments of time and money. I’m flabbergasted at the glossing over of every failed prophecy, every conspiracy theory endorsed by their founders, every false teaching, embodiment, and "karmic reading," and every bad practical decision they ever made. Members have clearly banished every shred of critical thought and reasoning in order to follow such a hodgepodge. How can anyone in the year 2008 feel that it is still worth their time, effort and life’s energy to promote and preserve such a legacy?

They claim they do this out of devotion and humility. I say it’s pride. I say it’s hubris, and I say it’s an ultimately selfish lusting after immortality. I mean, really. Who wants to die? Every fiber of our being resists it. Believe me, I understand the problem. But wishing won’t take death away.

Some members have now "kept the flame" of The Summit Lighthouse for 50 years. Many no doubt assume they will become immortal at the end of "this life" as they are granted their ascension at the legendary "Royal Teton Retreat" for their selfless service to "the Brotherhood." They are virtually certain to be disappointed as their bodies fail them and they die–as we all must. Their personality will rot away along with their physical brain. And they will never even realize that they failed to achieve the promised reward. It’s hard for most people to even imagine that they will have absolutely no awareness after they die. But it’s a reality we all must confront. And it’s not even that bad, really–no worse than our complete and total non-awareness before we were born.

The waste of one’s life in pursuit of the afterlife is an eternal tragedy, and one perpetuated always by fear. Fear of death leads to a grasping and seeking for answers which provide a kind of empty relief from anxiety. I say empty because the anxiety never truly goes away. Having found any relief at all, the believer feels superior and becomes addicted to this feeling. They also yearn to share it with the world. In this wise, they arrive at the conceit that they are about their "father’s business"–that of saving souls. They cheerfully spread their deadly afterlife mind-virus (so qualified because it strips them of the ability to fully enjoy and appreciate the one life that they actually have). In so doing, they believe that they are amassing the only brownie points that matter–those which they plan to cash in after death. The years tick by and eventually their mind has become so altered they can no longer imagine living without their delusions–nor their accrued brownie points.

It all goes back to the initial pride of the true believer. They never get over that initial euphoria of believing they have actually found the exception to the rules of life and death. They never get over the feeling that they can travel outside their bodies–and they yearn to do so permanently. In so doing, they feel they will rise triumphantly above us mere mortals. Their inner subjective feelings of oneness, light, and love (and the wish to be immortal) trump all reason, scholarship, and empirical evidence. Oftentimes, they become so obsessed, they even become inaccessible to those who love them. Unfortunately, this equation is totally invisible to those so infected.

By sheer dogged determination, they force themselves to keep their spiritual pride intact, while the paradise of their actual life is lost. They will and have paid the price, but sadly they will never count the cost.

 


Comments (26 comments)

Amaterasu / August 7th, 2008, 10:45 pm / #1

People love a good story it seems. And as demonstrated by the "livid" scribes of the Lesbian Biker Chick brigade story, some stories are more true than others.

It is an apathetic mind that has blind faith in a teacher.

It takes a determined and active mind to ask questions and expose inconsistencies. An organised and disciplined mind to study the stories in the history, biology and philospohy books. A process in honesty to study the process (or lack of) of your rational mind.

To question a messenger or teaching (or at least, the one that's in vogue) is to have "entities".

Great post. (By the way, I was one of those Lesbian Biker Chicks….it was a dark and blustery astral plane, when we thundered toward our ill-fated and foiled Ranch raid…..) Now that might have been a fun dicktation.

Nina / August 8th, 2008, 6:19 am / #2

Thank you for such a balancing view of new age teachings and philosophy which is well nigh everywhere these days with not much critical thought attached to it. I have read your website with great interest and find it insightful and thought provoking, much as I find some New Age spiritual writings insightful and thought provoking. We need completely opposing views to be able to weigh down and settle our own perspectives and views about things and non things in the world. You are a brave person following your mission, much perhaps very like your parents who were brave enough to follow their mission and spread the word no matter how ridiculous it might have seemed to some and how much you take a stance against it.
Humans have a tendecy go too far in all kind of directions but that is needed too, if we did not push the boundaries in either direction we would not get anywhere at all!
Great website and excellent writing and analysis!

Amen Sigala / August 9th, 2008, 7:44 am / #3

But Remember those experiences individuals go through that are suppose to be evidences of Witnesing to the Truth of what thay are praying for, on, about or to. So once that individual has a "Vision", a Revelating Dream, just a profound expeience, it's hard to disobey it when it has become God and I feel it goes bk to our childhood being told God Is Love. And so u can figure part of what my mission in life is, to expose the dangers of telling children especially from birth that the Psychological make up of the God of the bible is Love, when it is NOT!!! A whole lot of us are programed, taught even I feel at a neurological level to believe in all this invisible stuff to reach some evolutionary state of reason and stability.

So it's hard to let go when there is a very strong co-dependence for persons in religion. Just, realised we non-relgious folk end up sometimes on the other side "saving souls " from religion! In other words doing kind of the same but on the opposite side!!! And feeling closer to being right, confident we are surely correct than they are or we we're!!

The Law of physics in action, pushing and pulling, the yin and yang – will the sanity ever end!

Always a pleasure and a joy to read everyone's comments, the articles and support to Sean's statements and now his sisters!!! I too was a member since 5 yrs of age and I think my mom was not just the same BUT worse!

Keep on Keeping the Flame and Fire of independant Thinking, Freedom and rational realisaton!

GDR / August 10th, 2008, 5:38 pm / #4

“….lesbian biker chicks….on the astral plane….”

Sounds like a great start for a Type O Negative song!

Someone should let them know…

ClintJCL / August 12th, 2008, 8:51 am / #5

Damn I love Type O Negative. Pleased to see that mentioned here. }:>

Reality Czech / August 12th, 2008, 1:59 pm / #6

They are virtually certain to be disappointed as their bodies fail them and they die–as we all must.

By the time it is obvious that they were wrong, there will be nothing left to experience disappointment.

Nancy Couick / August 12th, 2008, 8:41 pm / #7

Ah, heck. The older you get, the grouchier you get. I got too grouchy for church stuff from young whipper-snappers a while ago! Maybe we just needed softer chairs and a lot of us would have lasted longer….. NLC

Al / September 12th, 2008, 8:07 pm / #8

I picked up the new Slipknot CD recently – anybody who says metal/rock music is bad energy is crazy. Five minutes of driving with Slipknot at max volume and all my aggression is gone. Call me a follower of the “fallen angels,” I guess.

victoria essex / September 17th, 2008, 1:47 pm / #9

Sean, this is probably a very loaded question, but I am curious as to your take on your sister’, Erin’s, recently published book, Daughter of a Prophet. Now this brings us to 2 different Prophet daughters writing what, I dare say, will be 2 very different books. Your thoughts would be appreciated, thanks.

BlackSun / September 17th, 2008, 2:14 pm / #10

Victoria,

I like Erin’s book a lot. A review is coming. I’ve just been very busy and unable to write much for the last several weeks.

Amen A. Sigala / September 18th, 2008, 8:25 am / #11

Victoria, hello, I’m not aware of the other bk. What is it’s title so I can order it along w/ the one Erin’s written?
I grew up in C.U.T. since I was 5 & have left. But I’m still picking up the pieces in my life & closure is the key to my recovery.
Thks, answer bk as soon as u can, no rush.

Louis / September 18th, 2008, 4:17 pm / #12

google is your friend.

welcome to the intranets.

victoria essex / September 18th, 2008, 7:02 pm / #13

The title is “Purely for Prophet,” and officially the author is Kathy Schmook. The book was never published, and copies are only available via the underground with people copying and sending it to each other. I’m not sure Sean has read it, of course, but would guess he probably has. It’s been around for about 10 years.

Amen A. Sigala / September 19th, 2008, 6:03 am / #14

Victoria, thks. I heard about that book. I thought maybe u were refering to a bk Moira Prophet had written but never pub. Thks again = )
Louis, not everything can be found in the internet u know, especially underground material !
Yeah, Google is my friend though! Found out more stuff about my health situation than my damn stupid phisicians ever did ! They get paid & I have to wk over time doing their job !
Ahhhhh ! Brain overload !
Hey what’s LOLCATZ ?!
Gona tell me yet?
Would be much obliged Sir !
*curtsy*

B jorn Roxendal / October 1st, 2008, 3:03 am / #15

Sean, I have not made any statements or claims regarding specific spiritual issues. I was simply commenting on some very definite statements that you made. When you write “It’s hard for most people to even imagine that they will have absolutely no awareness after they die. But it’s a reality we all must confront” it sounds to me as if you are stating a proven fact ("reality" is a strong word). Is this what you are doing or are you simply stating an unproven belief of yours?

(Yes, I checked on the teapot and IPU. It does not apply to me in this case beacause I have NOT made any claims of the existence of anything). My statements are (so far)

1. You can not prove that consciousness ceases with the death of the physical body.

2. Still you preach "1" as a fact, with, IMO, almost fanatical intensity.

3. This does not make sense to me.

B jorn Roxendal / October 1st, 2008, 8:12 am / #16

Sean wrote:

“The much touted “I AM Presence” is an illusion borne of archaic metaphysical dualism mixed with contemporary spiritual pride.”

“It’s hard for most people to even imagine that they will have absolutely no awareness after they die. But it’s a reality we all must confront.”

Sean, if science is where you turn for the highest truth, why are you so categorically and forcefully arguing for something that has not and cannot be proven by science? It seems to me that a more reasonable (and a bit more humble) approach would be to focus on what science can contribute to better our lives. When you are denying that which you cannot disprove in such a definite and intense manner you seem to me to be just as fanatical as many religionists.

Cheers

Bjorn

BlackSun / October 1st, 2008, 9:11 am / #17

Sean, if science is where you turn for the highest truth, why are you so categorically and forcefully arguing for something that has not and cannot be proven by science?

Bjorn, science doesn’t prove negatives. It demands positive evidence. The evidence shows 1) Brain activity produces consciousness, 2) Brain activity ceases when you die. What empirical evidence do you have for the beliefs on which you base your life? If you are going to use such a weak and fallacious tactic, I suggest you take a look at this cartoon. You come into an evidence-based forum, and your first argument is "you can’t prove it isn’t?’

You are attempting to shift the burden of proof (then making an accusation of arrogance). Please familiarize yourself with the concept of "Russell’s Teapot."

B jorn Roxendal / October 1st, 2008, 10:10 am / #18

Another thought:
when you write ““It’s hard for most people to even imagine that they will have absolutely no awareness after they die” I must question if this is what you really mean. It gives me the impression that “they” will continue to exist, but without the quality of “awareness”. Perhaps you mean that “they” simply will cease to exist altogether?

BlackSun / October 1st, 2008, 10:16 am / #19

This does not make sense to me.

Bjorn, please go back and read my comment again:

The evidence shows 1) Brain activity produces consciousness, 2) Brain activity ceases when you die.

If you think consciousness continues or is separate from the brain, it is up to you to provide the evidence. (And don’t bring up NDE’s, those are subjective, anecdotal, and don’t meet scientific standards). If you keep insisting on proof-burden shifting, I will unashamedly ban you. Before you shoot off your mouth, you need to at least understand where you stand philosophically. You may be willing to invest more than 30 years of life in fallacious nonsense, but I am not.

cathy / October 1st, 2008, 7:54 pm / #20

Hi Sean, I was wondering if you’d connected the dots that Tycho Brahe was also an atheist? I found the Teachings about 15 years ago but have never never committed to the outer organizations. I no longer decree & don’t follow the Teachings or listen to the dictations anymore but have seen the violet flame every day for the last decade or so. The I AM is a real and at least 95% or more of everything your parents taught is true. Anyway just wanted to share that with you. I get that your Mom was a control freak. Everyone knows that. Doesn’t make the Teachings any less true.

Louis / October 2nd, 2008, 1:57 am / #21

Hi Sean, I was wondering if you’d connected the dots that Tycho Brahe was also an atheist?

ZOMG! BBQ!!!

Proof positive of reincarnation right there! CALL THE PRESSES!

Now if we can also determine he was in the ad/press/media biz of the day. This case is soo air tight; it’s giving me claustrophobia!

*eyeroll*

I found the Teachings about 15 years ago but have never never committed to the outer organizations.

What this person means here in spiritual snobesse is… they are committed to the inner movement (or the imaginary and bogus.)

The actual people who also profess this cockamamie nonsense, they don’t get involved with them. Best to keep that delusion unfettered by real humans who share the same belief structure; lest you have to look the inane square in the face!

I… have seen the violet flame every day for the last decade or so.

Is this something everyone can see? or just you? or just certain people?

Because, if you aren’t imagining this… you’d need cojones to admit as much…

YOU NEED TO GO TO AN EYEDOCTOR!

The I AM is a real and at least 95% or more of everything your parents taught is true. Anyway just wanted to share that with you.

You pulled that stat square out your ass. 95% pfft! Why not 98%? 75%? or how bout 3%?

I’ll tell you why.

You are talking about something that exists in the realm of the imagination. You can make up whatever stats you need to define what doesn’t exist independent of that imagined nonsense. And because it isn’t real, you always get to be right.

soo…

Doesn’t make the Teachings any less true.

or, any more true, for that matter.

It just makes it stuff you chose to believe… regardless.

B jorn Roxendal / October 4th, 2008, 3:53 am / #22

Sean,

my point is that your atheism is a belief, not a proven fact, theory or anything of the sort. IMO you are expressing yourself as if you do not accept this.

My own belief may be described as

Agnostic theism (also called religious agnosticism)—the view of those who do not claim to know existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.

Perhaps I have misjudged you. Perhaps your views are closer to Agnostic atheism?

Agnostic atheism—the view of those who do not know of the existence or nonexistence of a deity, and do not believe in any.

I would appreciate if you cared to inform me about the nature of your beliefs – it would help me talk to you in a more meaningful way.

Bjorn

B jorn Roxendal / October 4th, 2008, 7:44 am / #23

I forgot your request that I reread your statements:

The evidence shows 1) Brain activity produces consciousness, 2) Brain activity ceases when you die.

The correlation between brain activity and consciousness is a field of study that I find fascinating and promising. I use some applications in my work to assist clients in relaxation and inner transformation (see http://www.brainsync.com/). This is a fairly new field of study but so far there is some evidence that brain wave patterns correlate with certain conditions (such as ADHD, schizofrenia, autism). Varying normal and healthy states of consciousness also have their corresponding brain wave patters. (Alpha = relaxed, beta = focused/active, theta = deep meditation/sleep, delta = deep sleep/extra deep meditation. Gamma is also interesting in that it seems related to the organizing of perception and thought into greater wholeness.)
I agree with your statements above, but the question still remains: Does non-brain-related consciousness exist? It may be that brain activity produces consciousness or it may be that brain activity is a physical aspect of the expression of consciousness. You say NDE research is not scientific in nature and you may be right. A problem using NDE in research is that you really can´t induce it under controlled circumstances (or if you could it wouldn´t be very ethical).
An interesting experiment is shown in this youtube video:
Ken Wilber Stops His Brain Waves http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFFMtq5g8N4
No, it doesn´t prove anything but a lot OF experimenting and “playing around” may be required before you can reach the level of “proof”.

Louis / October 4th, 2008, 10:40 am / #24

my point is that your atheism is a belief

actually, it is the absence of belief.

Do I need to believe there isn’t a giant ring made of purple jello orbiting the earth?

There is no observable evidence that a giant ring made of purple jello is orbiting the earth.

If I stop believing that giant purple ring isn’t there… will it suddenly appear?

Does my disbelief or the action of not suspending my disbelief… to believe in that giant purple ring of jello, factor in one bit?

When I say there is no giant purple ring made of jello orbiting the earth; it isn’t a belief. It’s a fact.

Soo…

Does God exist?

Does non-brain-related consciousness exist? It may be that brain activity produces consciousness or it may be that brain activity is a physical aspect of the expression of consciousness.

I am quite comfortable to throw out belief and begin to look at these questions.

What is God anyway? Beyond something conceptual to wrap your belief around.

Does God exist? Is that even the right question?

How much does brain function (the human mind) factor into creating experiences of the Divine?

yadda, yadda, yadda…

Anyway, Atheist may not be the perfect label, but then I’ve never really given a shit about brand names anyway.

Based on the evidence, I do not accept the current catalog of claims (and definitions) for God or the divine, or the need to practice any Religion. If I get pigeonholed with all other disbelievers, I am not gonna lose any sleep over it.

Now to the matter of Ken Wilber… *le sigh*

I would not equate the employment of the scientific method with… playing around. Ken Wilber is pretty reticent to performing those ‘tricks’ under laboratory conditions… I understand the magicians need to protect the secrets of the trade, but if you are claiming this stuff is subject to scientific scrutiny, and it’s not just to entertain… you kind of need to step out from behind the velvet curtain and get off the stage and into the lab.

Just sayin’ ;)

BlackSun / October 4th, 2008, 2:21 pm / #25

Louis,

Thank you. The difference between scientific agnosticism and strong atheism is a hair’s breadth. Scientific agnosticism allows that there might be an astronomically small chance that someone’s particular description of God actually objectively exists. Strong atheism eliminates that astronomically small possibility.

It’s hair-splitting which has only been made necessary by that endless believer harangue “You can’t prove there’s no God!!!!!”

Technically correct, but meaningless.

arjun jajra / April 3rd, 2016, 4:34 am / #26

People love a good story it seems. And as demonstrated by the "livid" scribes of the Lesbian Biker Chick brigade story, some stories are more true than others.

It is an apathetic mind that has blind faith in a teacher.

It takes a determined and active mind to ask questions and expose inconsistencies. An organised and disciplined mind to study the stories in the history, biology and philospohy books. A process in honesty to study the process (or lack of) of your rational mind.

To question a messenger or teaching (or at least, the one that's in vogue) is to have "entities".

Great post. (By the way, I was one of those Lesbian Biker Chicks….it was a dark and blustery astral plane, when we thundered toward our ill-fated and foiled Ranch raid…..) Now that might have been a fun dicktation.

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