Article

Documentary on CUT Bomb Shelters: Call for Participants

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Eighteen years ago today was a D-day of sorts: October 2, 1989 was the day Elizabeth Clare Prophet (as “Saint Germain”) had told her followers in Church Universal and Triumphant on the same date in 1987 “ere 24 months have passed, take care to be sure you are in your right place,” by which she meant they should be ready to survive nuclear war. Townspeople held their “end of the world parties,” but as it turned out, Saint Germain’s “day of reckoning” was postponed several times from October 2, 1989 to March 15, 1990. On the “ides of March,” with equipment, fuel, and food packed to the gills, and Prophet expecting war for real, (though people were mostly told it was a precautionary drill until they were inside) over 700 people spent a night underground in the barely completed shelters.

The next morning, shocked and relieved CUT staff members emerged from the shelter to a sunny day and a world little changed from the previous night. Soon after, they began the arduous task of cleaning up the mess of spilled fuel around the shelters, facing crushing debt they had thought they’d never have to repay, and resuming lives and careers they’d forsaken. CUT as an organization was never quite the same.

It’s been a long eighteen years since then, and most people have moved on. But the real story of that project, the families and children involved, how and why it happened has never been told from a solid insider perspective, which just a few people were privy to. There’s a lot of information that still hasn’t come out–enough to fill a documentary.

Though I was one of the select few who knew many of the details, I can’t tell this story all by myself. To that end, I’ve already started conducting interviews and already have compiled a growing list of people who would like to talk about their shelter experiences on camera. I can’t predict what the ultimate distribution will be for this documentary, but I’m confident based on interest I’ve received that it will be widely seen.

I want to make one thing very clear to church members and others alike: This is not a cheap-shot hit piece on the organization nor on the people who participated in the project. After all, I was one of them. I was out there on March 15, 1990 running around with a bullhorn trying to get people to come into the shelters before midnight. So this project is as much about me trying to figure out what I was doing there as anything else. I want to reclaim that history.

I felt then as I do now that the effort to build the shelters for 756 people was nothing short of heroic. The people involved sacrificed immensely. The prospect of impending war was psychologically very real. They thought (as I did) they were fighting for their lives and the lives of their families. Men and women, young and old, worked 12-16 hours a day six or seven days a week for more than two years out of a combination of spiritual duty and desire for self-preservation.

For those who don’t know, in the Mol Heron Creek drainage, just outside of Yellowstone Park, we built one of the largest and highest-quality private blast and fallout shelters in the country. The fact that no one working on shelters in the Paradise Valley was maimed or killed (as far as I remember) during years of heavy construction by novices is a testimony to the luck of the do-it-yourselfers, as well as the experience and skill of the engineers and foremen of the work crews on the larger projects. Though church members bought an arsenal of high-powered assault weapons, no confrontation with the government occurred such as happened in Waco, Texas. If it had, CUT would have been seared into the national consciousness much like the Branch Davidians were, and I wouldn’t be writing this.

All such irony aside, work in the CUT Engineering and Planning department was a lot of fun and a great learning experience. I miss the friends I had there. It was easy to forget we were preparing for the end of the world. It was more like working on a top-secret government project. Our meetings bristled with excitement. But finding out afterward that the shelters were not needed was a lot like finding out we’d been climbing a mountain for two years, getting to the top of the mountain and realizing we’d climbed the wrong one. Not only that, but our supplies were exhausted and our morale was destroyed, and people thought we were insane. Even though we were ecstatic the world didn’t actually end, it was the mother of all letdowns.

So that’s my focus for the documentary: How did we decide to put the equivalent of $53,000 per person–that’s $40,000,000 in 2006 dollars, not including the all-volunteer labor–into building shelters? How did we follow a leader up the wrong mountain? It’s especially ironic that the same amount of money, human drive and sacrifice we all poured underground could have easily built each of the 756 people who had berths in the shelter a modest but comfortable home on church property–with money left over to put toward the schools, chapels, and community centers originally planned by the church. Why did we put our lives on hold and feverishly misdirect our resources in such a self-destructive manner? Hundreds of people had joined the church staff over the years hoping to one day build a serene and happy spiritual community. Why did their dreams have to be entombed in intricate but useless tubes of concrete and steel? Why did we move forward with a morbid shelter project right at the very moment when the state had approved our community EIS and was in the process of overturning the environmental groups’ last challenge to it? Those are the burning questions that remain in my mind nearly 20 years later.

The simple answer is that the decision to build shelters came as a result of unambiguous and urgent “divine revelation.” I’m on the record with my Black Sun Journal audience and in several newspaper interviews as denouncing that type of message as a fraud and a delusion. I’m not wavering from that stance here at all. But still, I accepted the revelation at the time, and obeyed it, and so did thousands of others.

VERY IMPORTANT: I’m not just talking to people who now think it was all a big lie. I’d like to hear from people who may have left the church after the shelter period, but still believed in the teachings. Even if you still think the shelters were a good idea, I want your perspective. I plan to talk to current church members to get their view of that period in their history. I’ve already scheduled some interviews with people who were children (now mostly in their 20s) and had parents who were on staff or working on the project. If you were a teenager during 1989-1990, and your family was involved in a bomb shelter, please get in touch with me–I want to know how this has affected your life. I’m interested in stories from anyone who built a private shelter in Glastonbury, Montana or elsewhere. (I actually need Glastonbury shelter info more than CUT’s own, since I already have a lot of documentation on CUT’s project.) I’d like to talk to you if you were in the church in 1989-1990 and did NOT have a shelter space–how did you reconcile it with your beliefs? That’s almost a more interesting story than those who obeyed. Finally, if you feel you were substantially wronged by the church or its members as a direct consequence of shelter building, I’d like to know about it.

Above all, I’m deeply sorry for some of my behavior and the people I treated badly and for whatever negative role I played in the unfolding of events. I’m sorry we caused such a ruckus for the people of Montana. I was young and inexperienced–which of course doesn’t absolve me of responsibility. This film will represent my homage to everyone who was affected and an apology that will hopefully mean more than mere lip service.

Something grabbed us all and captured our attention. “El Morya” spoke and most of us listened. We got off on fighting his incessant epic spiritual battles (”The Labors of Hercules,” etc.). What was it that convinced us? For those who are still in the church, what IS it that convinces you now? Paraphrasing Christiane Amanpour from her brilliant series “God’s Warriors,” we cannot and should not ignore these stories nor the people who lived them. With this documentary, I’m going to try my best to explain them.

So PLEASE–get in touch with me. Forward this article to anyone you know who was a part of this history or had any connection to it. I’m looking for all levels of participation. I will be traveling as necessary to conduct the interviews. If you have a story but don’t want to be on camera, send me tips or background details you think might be relevant. If you’d like to be interviewed but are worried about social or professional repercussions, I can disguise your identity (silhouette interview with vocal processing). The more people who are willing to go on the record openly, the better the film will be. But I’d rather have parts of this story told anonymously than not told at all.

Please send me email addresses and phone numbers of people you think might have something to say. If you have photos or newspaper clippings and can scan them, that would be greatly appreciated. If you have audio or video of the seminal dictations from “Saint Germain” and “El Morya” about the shelters (or any other relevant event of that period), those would be extremely helpful. Any other records of shelter committee meetings, contracts, sales literature, or events would be useful in rebuilding the chronology. Also I need photos or video of people inside the shelters during drills. Please contact me privately with any and all inquiries about this project or proposals for participation at sean at seanprophet dot com.

This is your chance to tell your bomb shelter story and complete the historical record. Please help me make this happen! Thank you.

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Comments (91 comments)

Abogada de la Diabla / October 2nd, 2007, 1:57 pm / #1

Well written, well done! As one who was there also, I am on board. Tell me where to sign up. Excellent idea.

Bulldada / October 2nd, 2007, 2:20 pm / #2

I live in Gardiner. If I can help out in any way while your here-even if it’s just buying you drinks at the bars-let me know!

BlackSun / October 2nd, 2007, 3:22 pm / #3

Abogada and Bulldada, cool! :-)

Jeff / October 2nd, 2007, 6:00 pm / #4

As a manic-depressive off meds, I thought I was Jesus 5 times. I was positive. I once saw clouds quickly part as I knelt to pray the only prayer I knew–the serenity prayer. My body and mind were suddenly ultra-calm as if god had given me grace. Of course, I was hallucinating.

Now, like you Sean, I’m a dedicated atheist. So, although I’m mentally ill and you are not (I take meds daily), I feel a sort of kinship in the world of delusions…delusions that you and I, unlike most, readily acknowledge. That takes courage.

Looking back at being psychotic Jesus, and now a permanent and passionate atheist, I’m fascinated, just as you seem to be with the history of CUT and your involvement…and where you are now. I’m glad we’re both where we are now. Let’s make the most of it. Excellent article.

John Waid / October 2nd, 2007, 8:29 pm / #5

Hello Everyone,
Let’s get toghther with Sean and get this done!! Is is a story that needs no must be told. Do not be afraid to help. You may be surprised at the outcome of the effort to tell this important story. On the people who view this and more important the effect of finally grasping the reality of this event may have on yourself.
All the Best!, john

Anonymous / October 3rd, 2007, 5:00 pm / #6


LONG OVERDUE. This is an opportunity very much needed. I see it as being afforded finally not only the if’s, why’s, how-come’s, as much as the basic social responsibility to heal others and ourselves to then be able to better apport to Life as individuals. This is very important and a good job on your part Sean.

About the decisive, conscientious efforts of those who seek to lead others by wrong deceitful ways under the pretenses of God’s command, such must also be seen for what and who they really are. Because I have received from others kindness and love in truth and sincerity that is rightfully ours as human beings, I must also see my recounts as a duty that I owe, to give back to others what they kindly gave to me. Truth must be known, so we can ourselves see it and feel free to be healed psychologically, etc., in our lives.

Our participation can allow others to see the reality of it all for their own peace of mind and balance– it can help others help themselves by our involvement. It takes courage. Your courage to do so at your own time and expense is great and admirable. You are affording kindness. Kindness is not the things you get but the hearts you touch that matters. Many people were touched and hurt and your documentary could close that chapter by setting it aright in their lives. Our participation can allow others to see the reality of it all for their own peace of mind and balance– it can help others help themselves by our involvement.You have my moral support . I’m in.

Aaron / October 3rd, 2007, 8:10 pm / #7

I remember sitting in my history class in highschool. Out of the blue my female teacher started saying in a sing-song dreamy voice “the bear will strike when it is provoked… when that time comes reach out your hands and I will save you”. I was probably the only one in the class that realized that she was probably a part of a religious cult. I think I knew by “bear” she meant the soviet union and was probably talking of nuclear war. She disappeared from the school and went to got to some “bomb shelter cult” led by Elizabeth Claire Prophet. I think eventually she came back to teach. It would be interesting to see what she thinks now. I have no idea how to find her.

anon / October 4th, 2007, 7:02 am / #8

As I recall there was a couple of injuries; Ian Mahoney and Steven Sewell fell through a tent; Ian was quite badly hurt, Steven managed to grab a rope on the way down, which was a miracle in itself. I remember some sort of teaching came out about fear and Anton Lavey been somehow responsible.
Still in the teachings even after all the church has been through, I respect your position to make your own choices in life - no fanaticism here!

BlackSun / October 4th, 2007, 3:41 pm / #9

@Jeff,

thanks, yes clearly it’s the delusions that are at the root of the problem. After all, the very definition of a delusion is that, to the deluded, the delusion seems as real as reality does to us.

Also, I don’t think taking medication every day makes you “mentally ill.” It seems like maybe you had some issues, and now you’ve found a way to keep things under control. We wouldn’t call someone who took heart medication every day “cardiacally ill.”

@John Waid & Anonymous,

thank you for your support.

@Aaron, wow, I’d like to know who that was. Can you tell me the city and school name?

@Anon

Yes, but I thought Ian Mahoney made a full recovery. That’s why I said “maimed or killed.” There were a few accidents on the Ranch, such as when a young man got his head crushed between two trailers, but that was long before the shelter project from what I recall.

Wilma / October 4th, 2007, 9:23 pm / #10

I remember still living in the Netherlands at the time, where we spent that weekend dividing up food that was bought for survival purposes. Working until the wee hours, my arms covered in umeboshi paste while emptying a 5 gallon bucket into smaller containers and basically filling orders. Being that far away we really always thought it was a drill and nothing real. Yet we felt a sense of purpose and peace at least getting somewhat prepared. Of course many Dutch KoF thought about water damage more than anything.

It was such a mixed bag of emotions, partly because the different attitudes and vibes of everyone there. Now I believe being that far away from the Ranch was actually a good thing. Life was both simpler and more complicated for me back then.

Good luck with your project, I’m looking forward to watching that documentary.

BlackSun / October 6th, 2007, 11:45 am / #11

Thanks, Wilma, me too. It will be a couple of years.

Donnie / October 6th, 2007, 7:08 pm / #12

This is absolutely fascinating, being more-or-less ignorant of CUT until coming across your site. While I have no leads to help you with your project, I wish you luck in the endeavor.

a / October 6th, 2007, 10:55 pm / #13

Wow…about time.

Luke / October 9th, 2007, 8:22 am / #14

My uncle is a member of the church, and currently lives on what i believe is former church land(near emigrant, mt). I remember hearing about this as a child, I was 10 years old at the time. I would be very interested in viewing this documentary. Are the structures still intact today? I think video of the current state of the main shelter and other private shelters would be interesting as well.

Marc André / October 9th, 2007, 8:32 am / #15

Sean, this is great news. I’m very exited about this documentary, it’s a great idea. If I can help in anyway, tell me. Like filming a few images of CUT books in french at the bookstore I work at or anything you can think of.
I hope everything goes well with this project..

BlackSun / October 9th, 2007, 12:05 pm / #16

@ Donnie and a, thanks!

@Luke, can you please send me your uncle’s name and info?

@Marc, I will email you separately about the footage I need, Thanks!

Chris / October 9th, 2007, 1:31 pm / #17

Hey yo Daddio! Hope the project is going well. I’ll be home in a couple of days for the CA portion of the tour. THIS REALLY IS FASCINATING!!! Though I was too young to remember most detail of that time (I was 4/5 wow!), your article is most surreal. I do remember how fun it was riding on those rolling carts down endless dark tunnels and corridors lined with little rooms that would soon house 750-odd people. Though I’m not sure I fully understood the implications of those ‘rides’.

This is going to be a great film.

Not In Glastonbury Anymore / October 15th, 2007, 4:22 pm / #18

The following quote just killed me:

So that’s my focus for the documentary: How did we decide to put the equivalent of $53,000 per person–that’s $40,000,000 in 2006 dollars, not including the all-volunteer labor–into building shelters? How did we follow a leader up the wrong mountain?

In 1989, I was six years old and my official residence was in Livingston. My parents “subscribed” to the shelter in South Glastonbury-for a monthly fee they would hold a spot for their five person family in the event of catastrophe.

I remember that the night before, I was sifting flour, measuring salt and baking rolls to eventually hand out to my father and other men building “stuff”. My little friends and I would later be found running around the South Glastonbury shelter, playing hide-and-go-seek in the coolest playground ever. We had fun. We were too young to see that seriousness. And, what little kid couldnt’ get excited about the bunkbeds with the yellow foam sleeping pads?

After that night, many of our friends didn’t attend church activities. But, we did finally move to North Glastonbury at the insistence of my father, he remains there still, poor and in the same trailer that he’s been in since I’ve been in the third grade. And, I don’t even speak with him any more. I can’t get over the fact that he’s continued to believe and have this ridiculous faith that has done NOTHING for him. The fact that so much money was blown on a hasty building project breaks my heart, because even though I don’t speak with him anymore, I would have so much respect for this belief system if they could care for the faithful, poor, and elderly believers that loyally remain in Glastonbury. $40,000,000 is a tragically depressing number even as an approximation.

On a side note, people often forget that the lifestyle of those who lived on the Ranch was superiorly richer than those who did not already have professional skills and did not work on Staff. It seems to me, that those who continued to believe and live outside of Montana have a greater sense of functional autonomy.
Moving to Montana, was the worst decision my parents ever made, personally and professionally.

BlackSun / October 16th, 2007, 12:48 am / #19

On a side note, people often forget that the lifestyle of those who lived on the Ranch was superiorly richer than those who did not already have professional skills and did not work on Staff.

Yes, how ironic that the money used for the shelters came largely from the sale of the Los Angeles “Camelot” property, which was originally paid for by the members. Yet when it came time to survive, the members who had already given small fortunes to the Church were forced to fend for themselves.

Seems Like Another Life / October 25th, 2007, 12:23 pm / #20

My little friends and I would later be found running around the South Glastonbury shelter, playing hide-and-go-seek in the coolest playground ever. We had fun. We were too young to see that seriousness. And, what little kid couldnt’ get excited about the bunkbeds with the yellow foam sleeping pads?

Oh I completely know what you mean! I was also 6 at the time and the whole thing seemed sort of exciting. Like a big sleep-over. We would run up and down the tunnels and play around the grounds. There were quite a few kids my age to play with. I knew something scary was going to happen but did not realize at the time that it was supposed to happen that night.

Matthew Crown / October 28th, 2007, 12:32 pm / #21

The messenger in her one of her better moments taught that people should not follow her words just because she said it, but because it resonated in their hearts, if it did so.

In this regard, during the shelter cycle and living in Seattle, I prayed for illumination about whether there was really going to be a war. I and a close friend of mine got the definite sense [the "definite Ray"] that there would ***not*** be one.

I did not sense in the planet the vibration of war.

Yet, I to regard the eforts of those who bult teh shelters as heroic in intent and a great achievement. They may yet come in quite handy.

You may put that in your documentary if you like :).

I believe that ECP herself often did not follow the true spirit of the Masters. And I also believe that those Masters were often able to convey no-a-little of their perspectives to earth-dwellers through her.

Sean, I hope you don’t mind if I put this dictation excerpt below.

“Then there are the false doctrines and dogmas of Christianity that bind people to no religion but to wolves in sheep’s clothing. People are bound because they somehow believe without having given thought to it that they must be subservient to the system, having been taught that only through this or that body or church or organization or individual can they have salvation.

You are the independent thinkers. You are here because you do not buy into something said simply because it was said by “a very important person” to whom others think they must surrender their very minds.

-Great Divine Director: 6-26-94

Ah, that ECP could have applied more of the truth came through her!

BlackSun / October 30th, 2007, 1:02 am / #22

Matthew,

I believe that ECP herself often did not follow the true spirit of the Masters. And I also believe that those Masters were often able to convey no-a-little of their perspectives to earth-dwellers through her.

This cracks me up. Why did you need a messenger if you decide what is right and what is wrong? How is that different than just deciding what is right and wrong on your own?

You go quoting dictations, but, similar to how Christians treat the bible, they’re like the alphabet. You can take scripture or dictations and make them say whatever you want them to say.

I did not sense in the planet the vibration of war.

OK, but did you have a shelter during the danger period? Why or why not?

Great Divine Director: You are here because you do not buy into something said simply because it was said by “a very important person” to whom others think they must surrender their very minds.

Oh, the irony.

Matthew Crown / November 1st, 2007, 3:03 am / #23

Good questions:

It seemed strange to be a gungho guy as I am, to know the commie-devils are up to no good, and yet not feel compelled to get in a shelter.

**Why did you need a messenger if you decide what is right and what is wrong?

The whole stated point of a messenger was to work with you until you could connect to your own Christhood.

The actual declared purpose of the Summit is to connect people with their own I AM.

“It is indeed unfortunate, and that word is mild”- that ECP did not really know how to do that, either for her family or students. She too often dominated and displaced the students individuality. But let us be charitable- the methods to do so have not been available. There was no way known to her to foster the inner awareness. And a lot of us were psychologically needy, and wanted to be directed.

She would give a three hour talk on individual Christhood, but the system was not in place for people to actually develop it.

ECP did actually say that there is a stage of initiation where one is faced with the test of deciding to go against the guru. At that point, to do so is to pass the test.

Sean, I know you get royally po’d when people seem to condescend to you, saying they see why you are the way you are, yada yada. I hope I am not going to come across that way here. If I do, I know you’ll let me know. ☺

Let’s just look at-

1- ECP had a power complex royale.

2-She kind of crammed it down your throat, and you were a boy/male and so got the worst of it psychologically. It wasn’t right.

I remember MLP describing one time how ECP basically “got down Sean’s throat” with some type of disciplinary action. I think it related to learning to read or something.

3- So now this- To try to get free of that dominating force is sooooo difficult. It is difficult for all of us, and moreso for you who had it from birth.

It is difficult to take the good and leave the rest.

It is so much more complicated than saying ECP was false and made it all up. Just on a rational level, to examine the Pearls from 1958 to the end, to the see the vast development of themes, often picked up after decades, the subtle development of ideas… To look at the body of work as a whole is to see something on the level of complexity of a Beethoven symphony, or Bach. [Yes, with some snafus thrown in].

Now, instead of diving into one’s inner realm and all its painful ambiguity, to sort things out- “this, not that; this not that…”- one can go into escapism, political fanaticism, rationalism. That only uses a few aspects of conscious individuality, starving the rest.

I can’t say it wasn’t hard for me not to go along with the herd and to get a shelter. But when I would call people in Montana it was like contacting a giant fear-vortex.
From that I knew something wasn’t right.

[A lot of the time I was just as herdish as other people, so I don’t pretend to have been always following my inner sense, though I wish I had.]

**How is that different than just deciding what is right and wrong on your own?

As Helena Roerich said, **synthesis** is a supreme achievement. It is the ability to take all these many polar opposites and hold them in awareness, to resolve them without going nuts, or going to one extreme.

Trying to resolve and hold together ECP’s extreme traits, the glory and the tragedy, the various things in the Teachings that are some times at polar opposites etc. This aint easy.

**OK, but did you have a shelter during the danger period? Why or why not?

No, I didn’t. I prayed and asked for direction and got the sense it wouldn’t happen, I basically didn’t bother, as I felt no juice coming from within.

***You go quoting dictations, but, similar to how Christians treat the bible, they’re like the alphabet. You can take scripture or dictations and make them say whatever you want them to say.

True. But some are good at it, some not so. And you learn by doing and experiencing and experimentation.

And actually, that is exactly what ECP did herself. You can see it in her work. She was always changing things, experimenting. Can I do less? :)

And I think that is exactly where the rubber meets the road. I think that is exactly where individuality in higher consciousness comes into play. We were/are intended to bring out and be messengers of our own inner light/awareness. So we are to take those teachings that do resonate, interpret them for our own lives, make them practical, be creative, fill them with love and share them with anyone who cares to listen.

You know how ECP would read something and take off on her own interpretation of it. Well, can’t we all do that?

Anyway, writing this stuff helps me in my own processing.

“Vondir, dude”

charles / November 7th, 2007, 12:19 pm / #24

just thinking about that whole period makes me nauseous. but for some reason, I keep looking up info about CUT, hoping to read of its utter and complete demise. I am ambivalent about participating in the film project. I regret my years of involvement in CUT and live with that waste of time daily. I’ll think about the film project and if I decide to participate, I’ll let you know.

Annie B. / November 8th, 2007, 1:37 am / #25

Hey there,
Just came across this tonight. Wow, really amazed at how many projects you have going all the time! I’d love to be a part of the documentary - you could probably get quite the info here in Seattle from my husband & the rest of us. I think of the “shelter cycle” almost as a haze of constant pressure. I spent most of my 12 hr. days at the computer inputting shit! I had it easy compared to others, I know that. You really are probing into issues we all held deep inside–fears, I’m sure in my case, that had built up for at least a decade. I feel building the shelters was the most monumental acheivement we ever pulled off, though a strange monument in the end. I speak to people all the time about my experiences in CUT & they are fascinated in every detail. This documentary will certainly be a “cult classic.”
Best to you & your family. Contact us anytime.

Helen / November 8th, 2007, 12:56 pm / #26

I just want to respond to Charles’ comment - “for some reason, I keep looking up info about CUT, hoping to read of its utter and complete demise”

It’s clear to me that there are more than enough forward-thinking supporters to keep the organization from experiencing a demise in the foreseeable future. However, I think it’s fair to say that there’s not a whole lot of the CUT you knew left. What I mean by that is, the way I see it, the organization as it exists today is worlds away from what it was through most of its history. I wasn’t around for the shelter cycle, or even much of the decades after, so reading and hearing everyone’s stories of “back in the day” is really fascinating for me.

I was intrigued to hear of your film project, Sean. I think that if it genuinely will be, as you say, a balanced story told, then it could be a great piece of history documented. Contrary to the opinion of wasted time and money, I have admiration and respect for the intense steadfast work that you all put in, because I do believe that, ironically, it was one of the reasons we haven’t needed the shelters. But even from an atheist standpoint, could it not show the power of endurance and community effort to achieve a phenomenon? Granted, one would probably wish for a more useful phenomenon.

I never met your mother, Sean, and although sometimes I wish that I had, I’m glad to take part in the new cycle of TSL, where the focus is on the path, rather than the leader or the organization. There’s loads more I could say but I don’t think this is the place. Sean, I’d be possibly interested in providing input for the documentary if my type of perspective has a place in the film. Let me know if so.

BlackSun / November 13th, 2007, 3:54 pm / #27

@Matthew Crown,

I really had to stop myself from removing your comment. My patience has worn very thin over the years from having the same discussions over and over with people. Your comment stands as a shining example of the self-contradictory mentality that drew people to CUT and apparently still keeps them there.

On the one hand, you seem to feel OK with acknowledging the faults of a guru, but then on the other hand compare the teaching to a Beethoven symphony. I fail to see how they are not related. We are not talking about music, which is entertainment. I don’t care if a musician is a heroin addict, they can still produce great music. But a spiritual teacher pretends to offer advice on how others should live, making their own conduct inescapably relevant.

I contend all religions are entertainment masquerading as truth, and they distract from the real business of life, individuation and personality development. I don’t need a guru to give me a “test” about defying the guru. I just subject everyone to the same scrutiny–it’s called critical thinking.

You group such rationalism in with escapism and political fanaticism. Ha! What a crock of shit, pardon my French.

Rationalism is what separates the real from the unreal, the subjective from the objective and it’s what gave us the scientific method (without which you wouldn’t be reading this sentence.) If you have a better method than rationalism to evaluate reality, it is up to you to describe it and prove why it’s better.

I’m asking you to go and read the comment guidelines, by which I should never have allowed your posts. I won’t permit this discussion to continue here. You are wasting my time and the time of the other readers with this tripe. I’m not interested. If I was, don’t you think I would have stuck around and figured out a way to be running the church right now? After all, that path was handed to me on a silver platter. If I was interested in ’spiritual’ power, don’t you think I could have had it? Then you and other members would be listening to me about right now. And I’d be giving “dictations” and telling you what you wanted to hear instead of the truth.

Think about that.

BlackSun / November 13th, 2007, 4:11 pm / #28

@Charles, thanks, I hope to hear from you.

@Annie B., I’ll email you soon–hope you are well, sounds like it :-)

@Helen,

Thanks for your perspective, I really do want to talk to believers (that is, those who do not treat me with condescension).

While I promise to give those views a fair airing in the film, I’m also not going to shy away from opposing perspective, nor from expressing my own views. But the film is not meant to be like this site. It will be more of a historical look: “whether or not the beliefs were true, this is what happened, and this is what the people believed they were doing.”

I think it’s fair to say that I’m quite sure that the beliefs of CUT are as false as those of other religions. After all, there’s no more evidence for El Morya existing than there is for Gandalf. But there are many reasons people espouse such beliefs other than the strict pursuit of philosophical truth.

And if it helps some people get through the day….??

But like any drug, that kind of belief has side effects and that’s what concerns me. For us with the shelters, it consumed a large part of our lives and finances. So that’s a reality we have to look at. CUT would be very different today if the shelters had not been built. Possibly it would have more credibility, more members and better relations with its neighbors.

In a way, paradoxically, I think my film can help the church to move on from its past, and understand (and help the public understand) the factors that led to its uncritical acceptance of Saint Germain and El Morya’s doomsday. That’s my hope, anyway. Because the more people (even CUT believers) can begin to slowly move toward rationality, the better it will be for humanity as a whole.

Matthew Crown / November 14th, 2007, 10:33 pm / #29

@Matthew Crown,

“I really had to stop myself from removing your comment. My patience has worn very thin over the years…”

My congratulations on you controlling your itchy trigger finger.

You asked for my perspective on what I did what I did and I gave it. It leads inexorably into the realm of the items you loath.

I will let it rest with this-

You said your Mom had a deplorable lack of introspection…

Is rationalism a real alternative to introspection, or just a substitute?

BlackSun / November 14th, 2007, 10:51 pm / #30

Is rationalism a real alternative to introspection, or just a substitute?

Not really a question in your mind, is it Matthew. So why not just come out and say that you don’t think it is?

From my perspective, you can’t have introspection without rationalism. After all that is how you test your feelings to see if they are real or just wishful thinking, or figments of the imagination.

I know why people such as yourself don’t like rationalism. It gives you nowhere to hide.

Matthew Crown / November 16th, 2007, 8:56 pm / #31

I do not come out and just say it, because in a Platonic dialogue in the pursuit of Truth, one opens a question for discussion, for mutual enlightenment, for perceiving what one is holding as an hypothesis of Life, to see that perhaps in a new light.

Now perchance you have me categorized neatly as an emotionally driven, needy mystic, too weak to bravely face with scintillating intellect the awesome though uncharming destiny of a dust to dust existence.

If this be so, make the most of it.

“If immortality be false, it matters little if anything else be true.”

[Yes, yes, I confess to my emotional weakness- I could not let it rest. ;) ]

Richard Lamborne / November 25th, 2007, 6:57 pm / #32

As a screen writer and independent producer, a project that would “explain” the “shelter” experience could have immense value — to all of us who spent a Montana Winter digging massive holes-in-the-ground, as well as to anyone who is fortunate enough to face life’s ultimates.

As fate would have it, on that dreaded night of fearful expectation, I pulled the ole guard duty, all night out under the stars of a Montana sky. Then it hit me! This whole shelter thing, the survival, the fear, wondering endlessly about ICBMs, and what it would feel like to be vaporized. . . all that had nothing to do with what we all went through.

It felt to me like a grand experiment, a “test” (as we all were want to say) had been played out . . . and experiment that we failed. It was a test of community, a potential to face the worst-case, as an individual and as a collective. To literally materialize the one-for-all-all-for-one concept. To make it real. So the underlying purpose had nothing to do with saving necks or preserving one’s status quo. It could well have been more profound than an exercise in physical survival.

As is the case with all bureaucracies, management failed us that night and throughout that cycle. It was incapable of nurturing the birth of something that would have surprised everyone, but would have required a releasing of its control. It’s not that the anticipated Armageddon was not delivered. They were unable to allow the upside — a workable platform for a living community of supposed enlightened souls.

You cannot champion rights and freedom and then limit/control their expressive fulfillment.

Good luck with your project.

Black Sun Journal » Report: First Documentary Shoot / November 28th, 2007, 11:15 pm / #33

[...] Greetings, readers! I’m back after a long posting hiatus, 2,800 miles of driving, and the Thanksgiving holiday, making for a highly productive inaugural shooting trip for my documentary (previous article). I conducted several lengthy and in-depth interviews in several locations around the western U.S. with current and former members of Church Universal and Triumphant. [...]

curious / December 12th, 2007, 2:21 pm / #34

as an outsider with no real connection or understanding of what once appeared to be religious quackery, i approached writing a story about the church from the point of view of the ignorant skeptic. i’m now enmeshed in sifting through both interviews with the current presidents, former and current members and also the church’s local ill-repute. at first glance, it became a story of modern-day persecution and lack of open-mindedness on the part of local people. but it is clear to me that this story is about the complexity of human psychology and our seemingly hard-wired need/desire to be a part of something greater than our single solitary lives.

while i have no sources for your film, your project strikes me as ultra-relevant and timely: pres george is ready to attack iran over enriched uranium. it is purported that the us government has inquired with church officials about the shelters and the prospective of using them for its own purposes. i get that your project is a history piece, but, as a history piece it resonates with our current state of affairs in the world - division, factionalization, threats of war, war, and the role of the people existing in fear of their government rather than the other way around. people have prophesized the end for millenia. what is it in the make-up of we less than post-paleolithic beings that is so fascinated with our own demise?

i wonder where you see leaving the film, you know, the question viewers are left with as the credits roll. i look forward to finding out…

BlackSun / December 12th, 2007, 11:16 pm / #35

Curious,

it is clear to me that this story is about the complexity of human psychology and our seemingly hard-wired need/desire to be a part of something greater than our single solitary lives.

This is indeed the central theme of the story. Which is why I’m speaking to both believers and non-believers. It’s really important to me to gather a wide range of perspectives.

It is indeed interesting that the U.S. government has approached CUT about the use of its shelters. Though one would assume that the government has plenty of facilities available for its use, including scores of abandoned missile bases (some of which have been sold to private parties).

i wonder where you see leaving the film, you know, the question viewers are left with as the credits roll. i look forward to finding out…

You and me both. Making this film is a process of discovery for me. I have very few preconceived notions, other than what I directly experienced. Those experiences have left me with many unanswered questions, and that is what I’m trying to explore.

My philosophical inquiries, which have led to inescapable conclusions about the nature of objective reality (and the known vs. unknown) are a completely separate issue.

People’s shelter experiences differed widely and were wholly subjective. It is this point of departure I’m most interested in following–including the tension between the old guard and the new wave of believers in CUT.

The film will probably be as much a sociological study as anything else. Because human nature and group dynamics are some of the most fascinating subjects of all.

Melissa / December 16th, 2007, 7:47 pm / #36

My husband grew up in a household w/ 2 believers- his aunt & grandmother. I have listened to other family members tell me of stockpiling of supplies, endless prayer & the complete seperation from the outside world as they all but barracaded themselves in their home. My husband has no memory of this certainly traumatic time in his life.

I think that your project is extremely interesting! I had never heard of CUT until I met my husband who was reluctant to speak on the topic as I became inquisitive. A few years ago, I sorted through numerous books, audio tapes, VHS tapes, pamphlets & other CUT paraphanalia in their family home & couldn’t help but think that they had given up too much of themselves for this church. They lived everyday life w/ the bare minimum & splurged on tools of the teachings, weekend seminars as well as a couple of trips to “The Ranch”.

After the “project”, they still believed in CUT & the teachings of ECP. The had pictures of her in their home, shared stories of their trips to “The Ranch” & cherished pieces of cloth that ECP had (don’t know the CUP term) “blessed”. My husband used to blame their belief in this church for their social & mental demise. He now has become more interested in hearing the stories of others as he attempts to sort through the sadness of the loss of his aunt who is now homeless & the other failings of his family. I wish you the best of luck as you search for the answers you are looking for- - for everyone including my dear husband.

Little Drummer Boy / January 23rd, 2008, 1:13 am / #37

Black Son you BASTARD!!

A bull horn… at lest you could’ve said something helpful like “run for lives” or maybe “the sky is falling” ……I joke.

I do remember receiving a phone call in October of 1989 from my Mother, no relation to yours. It was time for me to make the run from L.A. to MT and take cover in the shelter at Glasstonberry. I spoke with others in L.A. whom I knew about what was going on and I waved good bye to them all. I told my Mother, biological, I’d rather be directly under the bomb then spend a minute in a shelter with all those crazy people. See you in the retreats :-)

It was a dark night. I thought that I may never see any of family again and that I may not wake tomorrow to see the next day. I remember writing in my calendar at the start of October 1989 “END OF THE WORLD” It scared me for a long time.

After the smoke cleared. Church members went home with their heads hung low. It was a different time for CUT members. The firework had been lit, everyone was ready to watch it go off and it turn out to be a dud. I could see and hear it in members voices and on their faces. “What do we do now?” Dougt was seeping in and people started to question their leader.

My first conference was 1972 in Los Angeles California at the Ambassador Hotel. I lived in Pasadena, Camelot, and Montana and take full credit for putting an end to World Communism, collectively of course. Why not we stood for years every Saturday night Reversing the Tide. Fuck it let’s take it. What I’m trying to say is, if today I found the Summit light House/CUT, and I was the parent(s) of two children. There is no way I would take my family, move them miles from home and commit to the life that I had to live. So to not go and get in that shelter with friends and family, took a lot of trust in myself and my own beliefs. I’m so glad I didn’t go. But then if it had been the end if the world… those of you who did go. That’s the last place I’d want to be in this doomsday scenario.

Good luck with the documentary, I’ll look for it on PBS.

cj / February 20th, 2008, 5:07 pm / #38

I currently live in South Glastonbury. I’ve been here about 4 years. Learning about the history of CUT in Montana has been fascinating for me. I remember watching a “60 Minutes” episode many years ago in which ECP was interviewed. Obviously, the group was being portrayed as a cult.. Why people believe in what they believe, and what they do because of those beliefs has always fascinated me. I’d love to see your documentary, and I hope it comes to fruition soon. In the meantime, I drive past remnants of underground shelters, and just wonder….

cj / February 28th, 2008, 8:14 pm / #39

Richard Lamborne

did you buy your way into a shelter? or was it services rendered?

Robert / April 18th, 2008, 8:01 am / #40

Yeah, I remember what they were doing in Toronto at the time. Boy was the landlord pissed what they did to his basement.

I have some vids of ECP on 60 minutes, etc.

Let me know if I can be of help.

Robert

Trevor / April 20th, 2008, 9:18 am / #41

I remember clearly the night when it was all supposed to happen.  This whole drama was such a psychological amplifier it was amazing.   I saw people who had seemed normal and rational break down and turn their better selves into some strange “Lord of the Flies” type consciousness.  I could not take the atmosphere so in the midst of the chaos I actually left Montana racing to Arizona because I believed I could do better with a true friend that a bunch of freaked out church members who were literally ready to shoot someone who came to their shelters if they were not members.  Ugly ugly scene.   I spent from March to August in Arizona pondering my future and heavy soul searching.  I decided ultimately that the fear of armageddon was not going to dictate the course of my life.  I then returned back east go my Bachelors degree and subsequently my Master’s degree.  I am still am member of CUT, actually even plan to go the 50th anniversary this summer, but I have sobered up considerably.  It is unfortunate that so many lives were sidetracked by the paralysis of fear.  But then as now mental health is an inside job regardless of what your belief system happens to be.  

Trevor / April 21st, 2008, 5:22 am / #42

Sean,
Please remove my entry #41 as I do not wish to be party to this toxic diatribe. I would prefer to move on with my life and I recommend you do so as well. Count me out as a participant

BlackSun / April 21st, 2008, 8:00 am / #43

Trevor,

Interesting how you tell the truth and now you want to untell it. How did it suddenly go from being your personal testimony of what happened to a “toxic diatribe.” Did someone see your entry and start shaming you about it?

I find your sudden turnabout fascinating. What do the words “move on with your life” mean, if not exploring the lessons of your past so that you can avoid repeating the same mistakes and help others do the same? Or would you prefer the definition of sweeping things under the carpet and pretending they never happened?

Trevor / April 22nd, 2008, 6:37 am / #44

Sean,
It’s the rest of your website I find objectionable and that is what is the “toxic diatribe”. I don’t want to participate in your use of this episode in CUT history as a platform for your atheistic blather, even if you say it will be “balanced”. Your denunciation of CUT and it’s belief system to me is what is fascinating. How someone so close to the radiation and light could come to your conclusions is downright baffling. I leave you with a quote from CS Lewis’s the Silver Chair in which Puddleglum rebukes the Witch of Narnia, ” Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things–trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one…..That’s why I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t any Aslan to lead it. I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia.” Bottom line Sean is don’t make the karma of destroying the faith of others with your doubt just because you have lost yours….

Sincerely,

Trevor

BlackSun / April 22nd, 2008, 7:59 am / #45

Trevor,

Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things–trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones.

It’s people who look at trees, grass, the sun and the moon and see not trees, grass, sun, and moon, but some imaginary being named "Aslan" or "God" or "Jesus" or "Allah" who have the problem. How does that level of projection work? Enjoy your Narnia. I want to live in the desert of the real. (Matrix reference, if you didn’t know.)

I can’t "destroy" anyone’s faith. I can only encourage them to question it. I can only relate my own experiences. Truth and reality are the only things that have saved me from the endless subjective meanderings and wishful thinking I grew up with. It was like being born in a nuthouse and thinking the whole world was like that and slowly discovering that everyone was actually not insane, just the people around me. It’s been a long, strange trip and I’m very glad it’s over.

Trust me, the shelter experience won’t be a platform for promoting atheism. People already think CUT was a crazy cult. But then they hang on to their own religions. If it turns out as I hope, my film will actually provide a plausible explanation for why people did what they did, given their beliefs. If there are any implications about atheism, it will be because it will also show how CUT and other religions are more alike than different.

Trevor / April 22nd, 2008, 9:54 am / #46

Sean,
Enjoy your “desert of the real” and no I don’t trust you. If CUT were really over for you, you would not harbor such anger and bitterness and feel compelled to write articles like the “There is no El Morya” type denunciations. I repeat I DO NOT want you to use any of my personal experiences in your film, remove my comments from your website
Sincerely
Trevor

BlackSun / April 22nd, 2008, 10:16 am / #47

Trevor,

If there’s anger and bitterness, it’s over the fact that people like yourself have been taken in and fooled. Which is amply evident by the glib and superficial justifications you provide for your superstitions, and the reactionary self-righteousness you and your fellow travelers hold toward anyone who would impinge upon your precious pipe-dream.

No, I don’t respect El Morya or any of your other delusions. And you should have read the comment policy before posting. Your comments will remain here as a testimonial to the weakness of your faith, that it can’t abide the level playing field of frank discussion, reason and inquiry. That it requires walling off and special treatment and deference in your mind to survive. You’re not the first nor will you be the last to engage me at this level. But like all of them, you failed to anticipate the determination and real knowledge gained by 30 years of experience in your cult. There’s absolutely nothing you could possibly add to that experience by some kind of flimsy accusations of “anger and bitterness.” Is that the best you can do? I only hope you don’t have to expend the same quantity of your life’s energy to learn the lesson as I did. When you finally come to your senses, you will rue the wasted years.

Trevor / April 22nd, 2008, 10:58 am / #48

Sean,
And you claim you have a “balanced” perspective? At least I don’t have to create a website to validate my doubts. Keep the comments it you want, they can be a “testimonial” to your lack of common courtesy. If you can’t recognize anger and bitterness in yourself you’re the one that needs a reality check. Anybody pouring over your various diatribes can see that they reek of such qualities, hardly a flimsy accusation. I didn’t want to expend anymore of my “life energy: when I wrote my first post but then you had to get out your psychobabble and try to pin down the reasons I wanted it deleted. When you “come to your senses” you’ll be one that rues your perennial adolescent temper tantrum.

BlackSun / April 22nd, 2008, 11:03 am / #49

…perennial adolescent temper tantrum…

I rest my case.

Abogada de la Diabla / April 22nd, 2008, 12:51 pm / #50

I find it odd that Trevor saw that there was something terribly wrong going on at CUT in 1989-90, yet he is still a member of that church and is now making pronouncements that Black Sun’s author will suffer “karma” for his “doubts.” Excuse me? I’m with Black Sun, healing and moving on means you need to understand what happened. The documentary is a huge part of that healing.

I would surmise that everyone who has truly broken free from the elaborate fairy tale of CUT remembers where they were when they realized that El Morya was not real.

BlackSun / April 22nd, 2008, 1:37 pm / #51

Abogada,

Thanks. I’ve often said that if my parents themselves walked bodily into King Arthur’s Court and announced that the whole religion had been fabricated it would dissuade very few of the true believers. Who of course were there not because they really respected the messengers, but because they liked the message. So if the message had changed, the believers would have gone to follow someone else who told them what they were expecting to hear.

Now that CUT has no living messenger, they have only tapes, memories, and legends to fall back on. Which is why many members have defected to the newer messengers and their familiar dramatis personae.

This phenomenon of defection has been going on in masters organizations since Blavatsky. Which proves that rather than having contacted a true spirit world, or even gained inner knowledge, most believers are caught up with what amounts to an addiction to fortune-telling.

I remember how whenever there was an international crisis, we used to wait with bated breath for "Saint Germain" to tell us what was really going on. And he never failed to deliver a gripping narrative and made us feel so indispensable. Like we were the finger in the dyke between divine order and utter planetary destruction. The flattery–which is too much for most people to resist–goes like this: "By day, I sell insurance, but every Saturday night at the Saint Germain service, I save the world!" How self-important.

But what I never thought about until later is how "Saint Germain" was always there after the crisis and never before. Take the shooting down of KAL 007 in 1983. A true master would have been able to predict the event in advance and have us decree to avert it (if decrees even worked). More recently, "Archangel Michael" (channeled by Carolyn Shearer) was johnny-on-the-spot after 9/11. But what good is an imaginary protector if he’s not there when you need him? How is that different from no protection at all? I mean think about all the hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of hours of decrees given over the years…

Believers will always assert that things would have been much worse without the decrees. But thats always a safely unprovable assertion. We’ll never know. In the end, they rely on such fabricated but comforting reassurances, or like Trevor, the weak apologetics (couched in a fairy tale, no less) of C.S. Lewis.

What we do know, and can prove, is the following:

  1. Worship consumes your time, which is the most valuable resource people have.
  2. Devotion to scripture and authoritarian teaching ruins your ability to be skeptical and think critically.
  3. Both of the above put you into a suggestible state that allows leaders to more effectively control a target population.
  4. Therefore, religion is incompatible with a path of self-determination and self-knowledge.
  5. Without the above, it would have been highly unlikely that people would have heeded calls to put their lives on hold and build bomb shelters.

These are the questions and subjects which I still am convinced will make for an exciting and revealing documentary.

Bethanie Green / May 21st, 2008, 10:20 am / #52

Sean, are you still accumulating stories or is this project done? I would be glad to share the story about how Ken decided to quit his job of 18 years as a Navy satellite engineer, “to live” and be with his family during this time of trials and choices (or mind control and fear mongering [or weak-mindedness and ignorance!]…if the door is still open for contributions.

BlackSun / May 21st, 2008, 10:29 am / #53

Bethanie,

The door is definitely still open. I will be working on this for a few years. Because I have bills to pay, my commercial work takes precedence. But I’m dedicated to completing this project and welcome your participation. Please contact me privately to let me know your location and schedule. Thanks

Amaterasu / May 23rd, 2008, 4:07 am / #54

There was an Australian bomb shelter project undertaken at the time of said crisis.
So that’s, err, about 13,000 plus or so kilometers away from the fore casted event.
It ended rather amusingly with Aussie tabloid Journos descending apon the site of construction, like a pack of hungry dingos, scattering the few devotees, hammers in hand.
Labelled later by the press as “local cult leader”, the sole brave individual devotee who stood his ground turned the tables when asked: “So when is this all going to happen??” (Supposed strike).
He replied: “Well I thought you would tell us, after all you’re the media”.
I’m hoping to provide opportunity for elaboration on this story for you.
Comedy relief - all good.

Bente Berg / June 24th, 2008, 3:47 pm / #55

Dear S
I am a KOF and I was present in 1988 when the question about shelters came up in Portugal.
I do also remember in Norway in 1979 when we got a message that the Sovjet Union had attaced USA and we could expect an attack against Europe.This had noyhing to do with CUT
at all.
I live in Norway and I remeber hearing this on the news in my home town.
I remeber people were waiting in great fear for the bomb that would destroy the whole
world.
For several days people would stop and talk to each other about this.
So your parents did not invent the end of the world.
We had a cold war for 20 years
and there were no shelters in the USA. We were not expecting to survive so shelters were not built-
People all over Europe were very afraid of this and they never heard of CUT
This is the reason why people built shelters.
The cold war was not over in 1988 Sean
I want to tell ypu that I met your mother.
And I also met some of the divine beings she was talking about.
I am sorry to hear that you are not happy with your parents.
I am very happy with them.

And I wish you the very best.

Best regards Bente

BlackSun / June 30th, 2008, 7:41 am / #56

Bente Berg,

I’m well aware of the Cold War and the fears it generated. I was in Germany in 1983 covering the massive demonstrations against the deployment of US Pershing II missiles which lead to the INF treaty being signed by Reagan and Gorbachev. I’ve never seen anything like those demonstrations in my life.

This fear had been building for a generation, and it was on everyone’s mind that the US and USSR would fight it out over Europe. People feared a repeat of World War II, but with nukes. It was an apocalyptic prospect. Still, a mistaken alert by a government is in an entirely different category than what happened at CUT.

“Saint Germain” and “El Morya’s” prophecies about war with the Soviet Union were not about politics at all. They were a kind of fire and brimstone fantasy of judgment of unbelievers. As such they had more in common with the Christian “Rapture” than a question of civil defense.

Most CUT believers I’ve talked to built shelters because they thought it would “mitigate” the prophecies.

People in Europe built shelters because it was a matter of government policy in several countries.

So let’s not confuse religion and politics. OK?

BlackSun / July 2nd, 2008, 8:34 am / #57

Lets not confuse religion and politics?
Confuse?

America is a country of so religious people that a president who does not believe in God
could not become an American president.
I live in Norway and here things are different.
I see from yoyr webside that you have made up your mind before talking to me
so what is the point?
I believe that when the world face a cold war and the leaders doesnt do their job in buliding
shelters for people - it is a good thing that someone does.
You seem to think that as long as we dont confuse politics and religion it doesnt matter
if people have shelters or not. Cold war or not.

Best regards Bente Berg

Bente, your logic does not follow. Government civil defense policy may be a good idea. But CUT members went too far. It was not merely civil defense but an obsessive orgy of preparation for an event they thought was virtually certain to occur. Food storage was for seven months/seven years–not the two weeks needed to escape most nuclear fallout. The CUT shelter period followed dictations which had announced an all out nuclear war precisely at the time of the dissolution of the Soviet Union. So don’t pretend that there was some kind of authentic divine guidance. It just doesn’t add up. If that were the case, then the CUT shelter building would have occurred much earlier when the threat was more plausible.

Shelters may be a good idea as an insurance policy, but CUT spent its entire endowment on this project. Rationalize it if you want, but I think a better explanation is called for, which is why I’m interested in talking to people about their personal reasons for participating.

Are you interested in the truth–or merely self-justification of your beliefs?

Bente Berg / July 2nd, 2008, 11:59 am / #58

I think it comes down to this:

Some people have heard and seen the Ascended Masters and some have not.
Those who have not- think that CUt are people of great fantasy and so on.

Best regards Bente Berg

Louis / July 2nd, 2008, 11:14 pm / #59

Some people have heard and seen the Ascended Masters

How do you know you’ve actually heard or seen the ascended masters?

The mind is pretty creative and can make you think/imagine some pretty amazing things. I have no doubt you imagined those beings, however beyond creating that image in your head… you actually haven’t seen or heard anything at all. If you did, you could prove it.

I’ll test this spirit; and demand you prove you saw or heard something! Prove this is just not a receptive state of auto-suggestive hypnosis.

If you can’t provide proof, you are making it up (imagining it…) or worse, you’re a big fat liar.

Louis / July 2nd, 2008, 11:33 pm / #60

edit: to add

I was in the movement for 8-ish years. I went to 3 summer conferences, a spring conference, and a few fall conferences. I was on the Board of Directors in my local Study group for 2 years…

In that time, I had many, MANY experiences.

I have a boatload of stories about what I though I heard, or saw.

Of all those experiences, almost all of them happened as personal private experiences. Only a few experiences were shared, and only one was with a good sized group (the young mystics.)

I know with certainty, that I can’t reproduce those events and I don’t have a shred of proof that what I saw and heard was real.

For all it matters, I imagined the whole thing… and in retrospect, that’s what IS the most plausible.

Bente Berg / July 3rd, 2008, 10:03 am / #61

This is like” how can you prove you can think?”
Show me one of your thougts, and I will believe you.

Whatever the mind is doing it is also telling us that things are real or they are not real
So- the same mind but this time we can be sure??
Somehow it reminds me of the dark ages when serious people tried to find out how many angels vcould be places at the top of a pin?

We can not just say that if I didnt see it- it doesnt exist, because I say so.

Bente

BlackSun / July 3rd, 2008, 10:44 am / #62

Bente,

Louis is completely correct here. And you are using the oldest trick in the believer portfolio:

Shifting the burden of proof.

If you want to credibly demonstrate something no one else can see to be real, YOU prove it. Everyone’s subject to the same rules–like gravity. And those ground rules form the scientific method. Going outside the method is an exercise in narcissism and solipsism. You are essentially ignoring the rules of evidence by claiming they don’t apply to your private experiences. That’s your business–but such claims have precious little relevance outside your own head.

Thoughts can be readily seen on fMRI scanners. If you want to engage in real discussions about these questions of existence (ontology)–it’s time for you to get educated about the nature of life, consciousness, and reality.

You are clearly way out of your depth.

Bente Berg / July 3rd, 2008, 2:24 pm / #63

I have no time for this you guys

You dont like religion and .
I do - you see.
And that is all there is to it.
What is the point in this talk anyway.
If I dont agree with you
I am a liar or I am not educated enough.
Whatever it is you are looking for - have a nice summer!

Best regards Bente

BlackSun / July 3rd, 2008, 2:42 pm / #64

Bente,

Thanks for conceding it’s a matter of your preference. And thanks for bowing out.

You see, it’s not about agreement, or opinion, it’s about knowledge. The facts of the universe don’t bend to our wishes–yours or mine. They stand unaffected before all our feeble attempts to apprehend them. With methodical study and discipline, we can catch a glimpse of ultimate truth. Or we can sit in self-reinforcing groups and tell each other bedtime stories. Some people understand the difference, and some do not.

Those who can’t handle the rigors of uncompromising knowledge make do with religion.

That’s all there is to it.

Louis / July 4th, 2008, 4:26 am / #65

This isn’t even remotely about asking you to prove you can think.

I said before; I have no doubt you imagined these beings. You did think about them.

If you were like me, you’d spend many, MANY hours in decree sessions, repeating worded constructs over an over multiple times, watching video’s, (either ‘dictations’ from the alleged masters through ECP, or instruction and teaching) or reading TSL books. You invested (at the very least) a great deal of time (and most likely tithed) a great deal of money, in this belief.

I can completely understand how that kind of an investment would be important, as would be the need for that investment to have meaning.

That is the crux of it for me, though linchpin would be a better term…

Belief is the perpetrator and perpetuator here. It is the case with ALL faiths, even the pagan ones. Without you wanting, desiring and willing this schlock to be real, it doesn’t hold up independent of that crutch.

Faith can NOT stand on its own feet, however many feet that may be. It requires you to support its existence.

So no one is asking you to prove you can think, we all accept that you think and imagine these beings.

If, in fact they are real, and not something you made up (imagined)… then they should exist independent of your ‘BELIEF’ in them… and right there is when the house of cards comes tumbling down.

If something is there, it shouldn’t be that difficult to prove.

It is only a difficult task, when that something never existed in the first place.

These beings do NOT exist outside of your belief in them.

So believe in them till you are blue in the face…

The moment you claim this schlock to be real; then the burden of proof is yours.

This is why it is my own personal desire, that the religious of any denomination would either put up (the proof), or STFU already!

Bente Berg / July 4th, 2008, 10:32 am / #66

As I said before- I dont have the time to talk on this level.

The brain decides what is knowledge. We can not know anything in the world without using the brain. Why is it that sometimes the brain does not telle the truth and sometimes it idoes not
- and you guys decide when the brain is doing one or the other?

I believe and know and feel and see the angels, the Ascended masters and Jesus the Christ.
And I am aware that we sit on a planet in the universe somewhere among billions of other planets. And we know wery little. That is why we have a need to believe.

As I said before
Have a nice summer. Go for a swim and enjoy

Best regards Bente

BlackSun / July 4th, 2008, 11:09 am / #67

The brain decides what is knowledge.

Bente,

Sorry, but is it possible for you to more completely miss the point? The brain most certainly does not decide what is knowledge. That can only be done through multiple observers comparing notes with the rigorous discipline of the empirical scientific method.

The brain is notoriously unreliable as an engine of perception. We see what we want to see. Yet painstaking study over hundreds of years has yielded a reliable way to take the individual brain out of the equation.

When you say “I believe,” you ignore and disdain all that hard work that has been done. It’s like a child saying “I won’t, I won’t, I won’t” when presented with a difficult task. (In this case, the task of squarely facing gnawing existential questions).

Think about all those billions and billions of other planets you mentioned. On at least some of them we can be virtually certain there is intelligent life. Somewhere else in the universe, there is a person just like you insisting they “know” and “believe” in Gorp, Klatu, and the Grogglefenders. They are just as tenacious in insisting that they are “real.” They have even seen and felt them. You may scoff. But the only reason you think Gorp, Klatu and the Grogglefenders are absurd is because you weren’t raised in that religion. This type of belief (whatever the names may be) is a developmental stage in the evolution of intelligent life–but only a stage. We create our own imaginary friends. I suggest for you Matthew Alper’s book The God Part of the Brain.

Hard as it is, if you want to live in reality, you need to accept that the “angels, Ascended masters and Jesus the Christ” are no different than Gorp, Klatu, and the Grogglefenders. Figments of the mass imagination, passed down, worshiped, and referred to so often they have gained social reinforcement and an air of unquestioned credibility–the air of the “sacred.” But they have also become a psychological crutch which enrich the promoters, and systematically prevent believers from focusing on the real: observation, self-knowledge, and becoming emotionally self-reliant.

It’s little different from drug addiction.

Bente, since it’s the 4th of July, I think it’s a good day for you to declare yourself independent of these worthless and parasitic superstitions. What do you say? As for me, I’m definitely going to take your suggestion, fire up that barbecue, and go for a swim in my pool (not necessarily in that order). Cheers.

Abogada de la Diabla / July 6th, 2008, 12:37 am / #68

I too was part of Church Universal and Triumphant, since birth. I am less concerned with the discussion of solipsism and the burden of proof as I am with the legacy of the church. If the ascended masters were real, they certainly were not focusing on something constructive. Holy is as holy does; and for 23 years I witnessed a consistent message that was designed to bolster the personas of Mark and Elizabeth Prophet and not to help the followers of the church or the planet as a whole.

In my opinion, the mechanics of Elizabeth Clare Prophet’s personality made the most impact during what is collectively known as “the shelter period” (1989-90). They made a big impression in the form of her withdrawal from society based on a fearful acceptance of any number of interpretations of prophecies from Nostradamus to Edgar Cayce, coupled with a narcissistic belief that her whimsical firings were in fact messages from God.

During my 23 years at the church, I had two experiences that seemed to show evidence that we were indeed connected to the heavenly elite. But I later came to realize that these were filtered through my ideas of how my higher self crystallized into visual form – based on training from the church. I have now come to believe that these experiences had more to do with my own intuition than anything else, and I have come to believe that the brain is infinitely more powerful than we are aware. In other words, my brain had already taken in a volume of available information and made a decision based on that information, before I could even realize it.

Discussion of belief aside, the absolute truth remains that we have certain verifiable facts about C.U.T. that are undeniable. The bullet points mentioned by Black Sun qualify in that category. Those who dare to acknowledge these facts will be freed from the imprisonment of a narcissistic new religion.

I’m sitting by a pool right now!

Best regards Abogada de la Diabla

Bente Berg / July 6th, 2008, 2:28 am / #69

Dear Abogada

I am sorry to see that so many people later think that what they were doing for 20 years or more is a mistake.
I have experienced personal things that go beond anything ECP ever talked about.
My exeriences with the masters, with the angels and with this teaching has been
confirmed to me over and over. I have seen and heard what I can not even begin to tell
anyone.
And I want to tell you all that the spiritual world is full of love and beauty, the angels are real beings and the Ascended masters are as real as you and me.
They walk and talk with people personally today- messenger or no messenger.
I know that I will arise a storm of hatred and anger by saying this in a forum like tha Black Journal
I am the mother of 3 grown children and the grandmother of 8.
I have more that 10 years education and I work all week. I am down to earth.

I wish you could see that there are more than one perspective in this matter of
CUT and religion.
Best regards Bente

Louis / July 6th, 2008, 6:38 am / #70

I have seen and heard what I can not even begin to tell anyone.

and yet you won’t shut up about it.

I have experienced personal things that go beyond anything ECP ever talked about.

yeah, last night I pulled my pud… it was eye rolling, ecstatically pleasurable… made a lovely string of pearls too… aren’t you all glad I shared that… ;)

I want to tell you all that the spiritual world is full of love and beauty,

is there masturbation?

the angels are real beings and the Ascended masters are as real as you and me.

that is the claim that puts you up a brown creek without a paddle, lady. if that were true, proving them wouldn’t be difficult… they aren’t real, like you and me. they don’t exist on the same plane of being as you, or me. so stop saying they do! if that were true, everyone would see and know about them. there’d be nothing to argue.

angels and ascended masters are figments of the imagination.

if they are more than that, it has yet to be tangibly proven.

They (angels & ascended masters) walk and talk with people personally today-

and there are churches of ‘The Force’ where you can study to become a Jedi Master. and Harry Potter is remarkably well known for something that came out of the imagination of J. K. Rowling. and Tom Cruise is fighting a Galactic Battle with Lord Xenu.

all very entertaining… nice escapism, if that’s what you are after. I enjoy a good movie as much as the next. heck, I am a gamer. I love escapism. so i won’t ever tell you not to believe what you do.

I know that I will arise a storm of hatred and anger by saying this in a forum like the Black Journal

I don’t hate you. I think you are misguided and gullible and I don’t agree with you… but, if hate is what you are reading… thats the record playing in your head, not mine.

All I am asking is that if you claim something, and expect others to accept it… you back it up with more than anecdotal.

I could be lying about the masturbation thing, but if proof is something you are after there… you ain’t getting squat, cause that stuff is personal…

I hope I’ve made my point.

;)

BlackSun / July 6th, 2008, 10:01 am / #71

I have experienced personal things that go beond anything ECP ever talked about. My exeriences with the masters, with the angels and with this teaching has been confirmed to me over and over. I have seen and heard what I can not even begin to tell anyone.

Bente,

All this proves is that you are susceptible to a particular brand of hallucination, and when you stumbled across the “teachings” they confirmed what was already going on in your own head. It’s also a form of “confirmation bias.” Have you ever sat down and made a list of disconfirming information? Like for example when you prayed and the prayer was NOT answered? Or when a master “told” you to do something and it turned out to be wrong?

There are thousands upon thousands of people in psych wards all over the world who insist they’ve had similar experiences. The only thing that separates garden variety believers such as yourself from mental patients is the degree of ability to function. You are I’m sure educated and high-functioning. But the experiences you mention are no more real than a mentai patient who insists he has “aliens in his ass” (true story). For him, he really does have aliens in his ass. His brain is making perceptual errors in its simulation of reality that lead him to believe this obviously untrue state of affairs. But that is not a reality that is true for anyone else. It prevents him from functioning, and causes him to go around exposing himself in public and worse, so he is incarcerated in an asylum for the criminally insane.

Louis’ point is well taken, and it’s clear that he really could produce evidence of his masturbation if he so desired, unlike you–who no matter how much you are pressed can only fall back on ever more insistent assertions.

There is another book called Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me). The authors detail the amazing lengths humans will go to achieve self-justification. Ironically, the longer you have spent in an erroneous belief or mistaken course of action, the more vociferously does the machinery of your brain resist the admission of truth.

There is an economic term known as “sunk costs.” Briefly, it involves the tendency of people to continue in a course of action based on money (or time) already spent. Even if it can be rationally shown that it would be cheaper to abandon the project and start over, many people will still choose to chase sunk costs.

You should look at your years of investment in beliefs in Ascended Masters as a sunk cost. I know that’s very hard for you to accept. For me it was a 30 year investment. But even if you only had five years left to live, it would still be better to spend it in rational inquiry and rigorous self-examination than to wallow in the self-indulgence of these sickly sweet pastel fantasies.

To me, movies and gaming are far less damaging as forms of escapism, because we see them as such. You don’t see your beliefs as escapism–so you will change your life to follow them. As Abogada said, it is the results that count. You cannot get away from the fact that is is a wholly misguided power that caused people to put their lives on hold and pour tens of millions of dollars into the ground. Had we been rational, we would have built expedient shelters and gotten on with it. Instead, based on “divine revelation” it took on the tone of an Apocalypse.

Philosophically, we cannot argue from result. Many true propositions produce “bad” results, and many false ones “good” results. It is a logical fallacy to say that result has anything to do with truth. Truth can only be ascertained by rigorous evaluation of facts. In order to do that, we must first define what are and are not factual questions. Your assertions of your personal experiences are not factual–they cannot be proven or disproven. But there are thousands of other religions, all with adherents as enthusiastic and effusive as you are. Like dreams, these mass hallucinations know no bounds and have no check or balance on their outlandishness. Surely you can see the problem?

Bente Berg / July 6th, 2008, 10:40 am / #72

To whom it might consern here

If all you can say to me is that I am mentally ill, I am a liar and so on….
-
why talk to you at all??

Bente

BlackSun / July 6th, 2008, 10:54 am / #73

why talk to you at all??

Because, Bente, maybe the facade is beginning to crack? Maybe you are starting to question these things and maybe I can help you. Because you keep saying that you “don’t have time for this” and yet you keep coming back. I see that as a good sign. Go with it. Keep questioning those beliefs and experiences. Get upset, even. You’ve been swindled–sold a bill of goods.

The equivalence to mental illness is the refusal to self-examine. The lying is the lying to yourself to protect your sunk costs.

Now, let’s hear you address some of the points I’ve raised instead of just sputtering with indignation. How’s that list of disconfirming events coming? Are you wiling to actually mount a rational inquiry into your beliefs? Come on! I’m rooting for you. It’s the next level of intellectual and psychological maturity, and you are so ready for it or you wouldn’t keep coming here!

What do you say? Come on in, Bente, the water’s fine!! ;-)

Ann / August 11th, 2008, 4:33 am / #74

I seem to have connected with the Summit Lighthouse group off on on just prior to this “Bomb Shelter” experience. I was in Rosecrucian 7 years, and so some simular beliefs, but, although, RC does believe their our Guides and Spiritual beings, they don’t “invoke” them.

Undestandable I’d find some simular teachings of the RC, since, Mark Prophet had been in Rosecrucians. Rosecrucian’s discourage channeling as there are “dead” people who apparently drift about on astral plane seeking bodies, as naturally they lost their own. I just felt Elizabeth probably she was a real believer, and a religious woman. But, I felt she went off the deep end, in some areas.

So, anyway, I did practice degrees for some time, but, whenever I practiced the “Violet Flame” although, it made me feel really “High” in a sort of “Estasy” afterward a lot of negative stuff would begin to happen to me.

They told me, I had some “St. Germain” Karma, since, it was that ascended Master I seemed the most uncomfortable with.

I think it mingled too much “Religious Doctrine” in it for me, infact, I know it did. I began to practice with a Wiccan Group, which I actually felt a bit more comfortable with, and just using Archtypes, for invoking certain type energies-the concept isn’t that much different, yet,due to religious nature of CUT, they’d condemn Wiccans. So much of the Judeo-Christian Influence-mingled with some Eastern, Rosecrucian and Spiritualist beliefs. Quite a mixture. I know many members felt it fulfilling and made them happy.
If it worked for them, and they were happy, certainly no harm done. One persons poison can be another persons nectar.

Now days there are many channelers, one I am near now is J.Z. Knight_Ramtha, who also does trance channeling, who charges huge sums of money, and living in style. Seems these people attract the “Elite” like Shirley McLaine, and Linda Evans. Supposely Ramtha guided her here, as felt this area would be safer-during the coming dark days.

Now people are deep into the 2012 scenario. There may be some truth to it, but, then again, it could go til 2025 etc. Until George W. Bush, only the USA really had nukes, but, I’m sure he did give some to “Israel” and “Zionist” are about as radical as can be, so I’m a bit nervous, knowing that. Frankly the USA is dangerous, as only country that ever used a WMD, atomic bomb.

The main evil in the “Nuclear Threat” is to keep every one terrorized, and thus, thinking they must compete, is necessary to have excuse to spend billions of tax payers money, in the Privatized Military Industry-and manipulating all of us.

Yes, indeed. That is indeed a diabolic scheme, spelt out in “Tragedy and Hope” and Oxford textbook, by Quigley, that an elite group of men, originally English, like the Rothchilds and Counsel of Foreign Relations, controlled the worlds politicians, banks, financial institutions, and other assets, and played one government against another in wars, to control the world.

By creating enemies without, hyping it up like the “Mushroom Cloud” stuff, gets people to give them whatever they want, money, homes, freedom, and I think they must be amused, as if in playing a game of chess.

The USA and ZIonist, have duplicated Nazi Germany, and both exercise “Torture”. Even though its clear now, they lied about Iraq, people have short memories and buying the exact same line, now, when it comes to Iran.

So its really ignorance, and if one truly believed in God and Immortality, they wouldn’t fear any of these things, nor feel it necessary to hide in bomb shelters, as who’d want to come back out and breathe in all that toxic air, who’d want to see dead bodies about, and why “Fear Death” when one is certain that they can ascend to bigger and better places.

“There really is nothing to fear-accept fear itself”

I do respect those who are atheist and yet, are self-confident and will balanced people, but, I’ve found most atheist are really agnostic. Spiritual things cannot be proven, they can only be “Experienced”.

Elizabeth was an interesting person, and I know many people adored her.

Blessed Be,

Astara

Amen A. Sigala / August 15th, 2008, 12:10 am / #75

Sean I mentioned I would like to contribute. Not to write so much like I know I can, simply, ur mother when I called her to take her invitation for a Montissouri education (didn’t have a ph wking at the time) she got members to come and get me packed immediatly! to go to the RTR Headquarters. She charged the only type of flight available, 1st class one way on her American Exp, $1000, I remember being told this as to be made to feel a gratitude I must have not been showing. When ur mother didn’t stick to her invitation for a Montissouri edu. because I didn’t stick w/ kitchen duties to her satisfaction she sent me off, having to pay for my own way bk!!!!! She let me kindly though stay at the Livingston Teaching Center at the time to wk localy to pay for my way bk!!! Hell no was I going to give her that satisfaction!! I waited till my mom had the $ to send me and paid her, my mom not urs, bk later!!
What she did broke me more and just added to my hell at the time and but I still couldn’t let go of the teachings!!! NUTS!!!
There’s more but I’ll save that for the docu.

BlackSun / August 20th, 2008, 9:01 am / #76

If it worked for them, and they were happy, certainly no harm done. One persons poison can be another persons nectar.

Astara,

I disagree that there’s no harm done. Sometimes we need to go through making mistakes in order to learn. But time is the only irreplaceable commodity. So if people cling to false beliefs for an excessively long period, it becomes pathological. Obviously, they are getting something they want. But people also get what they want when they eat junk food.

I think it’s important to get what you need, to paraphrase a famous song.

Now people are deep into the 2012 scenario. There may be some truth to it, but, then again, it could go til 2025 etc.

There will always be people prattling about doomsday in this or that year. It’s been going on for all of human history.

The USA and ZIonist, have duplicated Nazi Germany, and both exercise “Torture”. Even though its clear now, they lied about Iraq, people have short memories and buying the exact same line, now, when it comes to Iran.

The U.S. is not like Nazi Germany. Statements like that trivialize what happened under Hitler, and exaggerate the case for what’s happening now. Yes our government has plumbed new depths of corruption and violations of human rights. But the only reason people compare us to Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia is because they never actually lived under those regimes. The conspiracy stuff makes me puke. People, nations, and corporations act in their own interest, and this behavior does not need a grand conspiracy to explain it. The laws of power are sufficient.

I do respect those who are atheist and yet, are self-confident and will balanced people, but, I’ve found most atheist are really agnostic. Spiritual things cannot be proven, they can only be “Experienced”.

Yes, the default position is agnosticism. But it’s not a 50-50 chance like it sounds. There is an infinitesimally small probability that any particular god exists. To be intellectually honest, we have to admit the possibility. But that is not the same as saying it’s likely.

Your last statement is a typical misconception. It overprivileges personal experience. How do you distinguish a “spiritual experience” from a daydream?

Allison / October 17th, 2008, 10:14 am / #77

Sean,
New to your site. I was 15 and on staff when this whole fiasco unfolded. I worked closely in the prep process (processing and dehydrating tons of food). We didn’t go to school during that time…we just did hard physical labor for which we weren’t paid. I remember vividly the night we spent in the shelter…the color of the curtains, the drone of decrees in the background, squatting on plastic bag-lined buckets to relieve ourselves. These, they promised, would be replaced with more normal toilets soon.

As a 15 year old girl, what I remember feeling most was a sense of dread that somehow I would be expected to take an active role in repopulating the earth. I also worried about how I would cover my breakouts after reemergence. How far would the 10 bottles of Cover Girl foundation go that I had insisted my mother buy? I remember listening horrified that if we became contaminated by fallout on the bus ride to the Heart, we would have to take a shower during which our hair would be shaved. I would have rather died! My memories are mostly visceral–smells, sensations, colors, etc.

As an Atheist even then, none of the frenzied prep seemed worth it. I wanted to be left out there to die with the sane.

I think your documentary sounds like a good idea. I’d love to be involved in any way. I have friends with whom I am still in contact. It might be interesting to have a youger perspective.

I tried to email you at the above website, but couldn’t seem to. If you are still working on this project, perhaps you could update your contact info.

Eric / December 15th, 2008, 1:10 pm / #78

Sean,
I came to Montana when I was 21 during the middle of the shelter cycle. I always had my doubts about CUT but I personally had no problem building civil defense shelters at the hieght of the cold war. (Serious threat of nuclear war=Build a Shelter) what’s the big deal.
That’s no less logical than a person who had a warped upbringing developing a web site to challenge anyone who does not now have the same atheistic beliefs as you.
(Raised as a confused prince=Set up site to challenge anyone who apposes your beliefs)
It’s funny how you use some of the same mental techniques to push your atheistic beliefs as your mother used to push hers. Surround your self will people yhat have similar beliefs. It’s a good security blanket.
Maybe it’s time to get over it, it was a good experience for some and a bad one for others. Such is life. Suck it up and move on Big Guy.

Ps. My cousin was in the active duty air force in South Dakota, (ElsworthAFB) at the advise of his commanding officer he sent his wife and children to her fathers shelther in Glastonbury, as India and Pakistan were on the brink of Nuclear war. He also said, and I quote…”I don’t know who has been leaking military intel to that Church group in montana.
Also Google Paul harvey on “India and Pakistan” and take note of the date that was the high point of the stand off. Probably just a coincidence….but who really knows????

Have a great life.
Eric

BlackSun / December 15th, 2008, 2:13 pm / #79

Hi Eric,

The shelters were built not at the height, but ironically and conspicuously at the end of the cold war. The Berlin wall was coming down at the end of 1989 right before the supposed danger period. Potential nuclear conflict between India and Pakistan had exactly what relevance to Montana, USA?

If that was what was feared, why was the prophecy for a Soviet strike, and why were we expecting to spend 7 months in shelters? Why were 100 psi blast valves installed at great trouble and expense? Why were we told to prepare for earth changes and 200 mph winds? Why were the shelter bunks fitted with seat belts?

It’s easy to come up with post-hoc rationalizations for illogical behavior. It makes it easier to accept the tremendous waste of resources if you view it not as a mistake but some kind of prudent precaution. That preserves the illusion of rationality for “sunk costs.”

My sister’s book explains what we were actually preparing for and how the decisions were made. It had nothing to do with Pakistan or India, and everything to do with an expected “judgment” coming through a full-scale attack from the Soviet Union. An attack that at a certain point we were instructed to decree for, not against.

“Let the bombs descend” is not exactly a call for mitigation, if you know what I mean.

As for your statements about “confused prince,” “suck it up,” etc.: Let’s get one thing straight, I don’t care what you believe. I’m here to talk about what happened and provide a place for others to do the same. You don’t have to be here. No one is forcing anything on anyone. I write social, philosophical and religious criticism in the great American tradition of dissent.

I advocate a scientific approach, which is not a belief system, but rather a method for the elimination of beliefs and the embrace of verifiable and provable knowledge.

I wish you well.

patton / February 9th, 2009, 6:19 am / #80

Richard the plumber if this is you then I remember the tough times, Steven and Ian falling through the main tent. F. Black and the .50 cals. Smoogieing (smoogie) the tanks with that black tar. Spending cold nights in the insulated tents in the" HEART." I was twenty something and part of that inner circle. From your response I know who are possibly. Remember I was the one who was called Patton. I worked 24 hrs a day up there and loved every minute of it. If you remember the fires in Yellowstone started that summer.. Reverse the tide. If BLAZE ,Malcolm F. ,John S. ,Ludwig and Michael are out there then hello. John remember when you, Ludwig and I didn' t think we could continue to swim in the Yellowstone, and broke the record of jumping in when it was 18 below. I miss those days irregardless what was going on in the church. The print shop was a blast. For all the people reading who don't believe this "The inner circle remembers staging the fake breakdowns to allow the
shelters to get through". To Vernon who I served with, Connie was lying the whole time on that jury. Michael, I always looked up to you for being a MARINE. I hope your marriage to Erin didn't cause too much pain. As time goes by I realize that those experiences made me a better man and I have no regrets.

fanona / June 10th, 2009, 3:30 am / #81

I was there too…may not remember all the names involved..good for them..but if it's not too late, this might be the completion/closure I've needed all these years. Let me know if you are still taking input. fanona1@yahoo.com

Toneman625 / June 18th, 2009, 10:54 pm / #82

Wow Sean,
I'm so glad I was broke and couldn't afford to be one of those "Pioneers" when the "call went out" at Camelot. I had only heard marginal reports about the bomb shelters that my old friends were spending their life savings on. I had stayed behind in California and was busy trying to make a living in show biz. As I remember the original reason for moving to Montana was that So Cali was doomed.

Toneman625 / June 18th, 2009, 10:55 pm / #83

Well as you know, in 1990 there was a massive tidal wave and LA was lost forever followed by weekly eartquakes that lasted a year. Oh wait, that is the premise in my alternate history screenplay. Anyway, I'm STILL in LA, and now I guess we all just do the best we can and hang in there. __I hope the doc is succesful, I'd be glad to share with you any of the stuff that happened to me prior to the "big move" I was not a part of. Let me know. I just ordered Erin's book on Amazon and I sent a facebook request to Montessori Intl. I'd love to find some old classmates from Colo, Pasadena and Camelot, see what they are up to.__I go hiking from time to time at the King Gillette Ranch (Camelot) trying to purge some of the old memorys. They were shooting "Biggest Looser" there last time I went.
Have a great one and let me know if I can help.
T. P.

BlackSun / June 19th, 2009, 10:51 am / #84

Yes, doomed, I tell you. I've been living in fear these last 15 years–not! You were one of the lucky ones. What do you do in show biz?

BlackSun / June 19th, 2009, 10:53 am / #85

Sure thing, do you want to be interviewed? Email me sean@seanprophet.com. Take care.

Toneman625 / June 22nd, 2009, 7:27 am / #86

Well until five years ago I mostly looked for work. Actually I worked as an Audio Producer on multimedia traning programs and as a lighting ant technical director on the occational short film. Then I worked for Walt Disney Records until they did one of their seasonal lay offs. Now I teach technical theater at a local high school.

MMM / December 10th, 2009, 6:04 am / #87

I would be really interesting in seeing this documentary. I"m afraid I can't really contribute with photos or detailed stories.

I was four or 5 at the time. I just remember playing in bunk-beds and the adults were very nervous. I think we stayed on night then went home.

I'm 25 and haven't been involved for few years. It is hard to say If I regret my time there. Regret assumes I had a choice and I didn't.

Crown pointed out:

1- ECP had a power complex royale.

2-She kind of crammed it down your throat, and you were a boy/male and so got the worst of it psychologically. It wasn’t right.

I always felt 2 was true. At TMS and at conferences I always felt that being a male was somehow inherently wrong or flawed.

Just when I'm think I'm done with the CUT stuff it resurfaces.

anonymous / August 19th, 2010, 5:55 pm / #88

I've gotten spam that sounds just like this Bente…. except it talks about having proof of my new fortune in ireland due to my deceased imaginary friend.

Pablo Fumero / October 21st, 2010, 5:47 pm / #89

Sean, I've contacted you before. I hold no grudges towards you or your siblings, even your Mom. I just found out of her passing and I wish to convey you and your sisters my condolences. I was involved in the Camelot era but never made it to The ranch. I just sort of fell off it slowly. I look forward to your sister's book as I feel it will answer many questions that I had at the time that I was not allowed to ask without retribution. It will bring closure. I met her briefly at the Trujillo mansion in Miami a long time ago. At the time I did it because I thought I was doing some good. Things change. I was good friends with Norman Millman as I'm sure you know him. I wish you well. Take care.

reverse phone lookup / March 4th, 2013, 4:44 pm / #90

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Anonymous / May 24th, 2013, 1:30 pm / #91

I use to be a very dedicated follower of the teachings of Theosophy, Saint Germain and Elizabeth C. Prophet but greatly outgrew it and learned that the Kal and the Occult was truly evil. I found a book titled "The Tigers Fang" authored by Paul Twitchell that provides knowledge of the true way of true spirituality of the Higher Heavens.

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