Prophet's Daughter: It Happened Like She Said


Over on Amazon, John "Flammo" took up my challenge to get specific about his statements of "inaccuracies" in my sister’s recent book Prophet’s Daughter. Just as I suspected, the supposed "inaccuracies" amounted to nothing but verbal quibbles, misunderstanding of language, and "Flammo’s" own personal incredulity at Erin’s revelations.

One of his examples had to do with an event during the Yellowstone fires of 1988. My sister’s book described the situation thusly:

Mother, Tatiana, and I, along with a couple hundred staff, stayed in the Heart, facing the flames, our faces whipped by hot ashes and an oven like wind (p. 146).

"Flammo" Said:

As I recall, we were about one-half mile to a mile away from the fire, not standing close as this statement implies. I don’t remember "our faces whipped by hot ashes and an oven like wind," though it was warm where we were standing and we could see the flames in the distance.

This is a perfect instance of believer hair-splitting. As you can see from the above photo, taken a few miles from the "heart" the situation was dire at the Ranch in the late summer of 1988, and it’s a matter of public record that nearly a million acres of Yellowstone Park were destroyed that year. As John said, the flames were not imminent. But that’s not the point. Erin did not say how close the flames were, she said they were "facing them." John admits the flames were visible.

But Erin’s point is primarily that believers thought they could spiritually turn back the fire. It was a dramatic situation, and as you can clearly see from these photos, the local volunteer fire department as well as the Forest Service were on a high state of alert. The praying against the flames went on for several days, and unfortunately I didn’t get photos at the height of it. But let me describe the scene how I remember.

At least 200 people stood with their hands outstretched toward the flames. The smoke was thick and flecks of ash fluttered through the air. My mom had her full spiritual regalia, including her "monstrance," (fancy glass case for communion wafer), shepherd’s crook, and (get this) the box of my dad’s ashes held high above her head. At times, she had people helping her hold up her arms–since she felt an almost biblical duty to spiritually hold back the fire and protect the promised land. As you can see from the pictures that show praying even under relatively good conditions, mom was so worried about it, she kept people in the Heart long past when firefighters had shifted to precautionary mode.

John "Flammo’s" hair-splitting is equally egregious on other subjects for which I do not have pictures. But I have a very good memory, which corroborates Erin’s thoroughly researched book in nearly every case. Here’s the Amazon thread, so you can see how picayune the discussion is becoming.

Bottom line, Erin’s book stands completely unassailed and unrefuted:

Erin writes, "We had defied convention…to prepare for essentially the end of the world" (p. 2). Yes, we had defied convention, but as Erin later admits some staff didn’t believe the end of the world was at hand or that we were about to be hit by nuclear weapons.

It’s a qualified statement. That’s what the word "essentially" means. A verbal quibble at best. And mom did predict a direct nuclear hit on the ranch, which is why the shelters had concrete-encased blast valves rated for 100-200 psi.

"A "golden age" might come, but in order to reach it we believed we would have to survive the worst weapons of the modern age" (p. 2). Who is "we"? I don’t know anyone who believed that.

Erin refers to numerous ‘dictations’ through Elizabeth Clare Prophet that mentioned this goal specifically. If John didn’t believe this, then he didn’t believe the dictations.

"If the masters were real and could truly see the past and the future, they should be able to give concrete answers" (p. 153). I remember the teaching (and experience) that the masters are real and can see the past, but we were always taught that no one could see the future in pinpoint accuracy because of free will, mitigation of prophecy, and complex causal variables.

Erin makes a conditional statement here. "IF the masters were real and could truly see the past and future…" Can John not understand English? She is trying to describe a world view and its implications for people who have never experienced it. Of course not everyone at every level had the same degree of "faith" or expectation of prophecy. But what she describes as the tenor of the CUT culture is wholly accurate.

"El Morya "was her guru, to be given unquestioning obedience, but I also felt that there was a little of her father tied up in him. His sternness was Hans’s sternness. And perhaps El Morya, too, would never give her the approval she wanted" (p. 171). This sounds like conjecture. Mother loved El Morya, and so do I. From early on in the teachings, I experienced El Morya and his great love and understanding. I have trusted few in my life, but I trust El Morya-to this day. And he’s nothing like my dad.

Erin clearly labels this as conjecture. That’s why she uses the word "felt." She’s expressing her opinion and makes that clear. But she does get to the heart of the matter that "El Morya" as guru was authoritarian, like our grandfather Hans Wulf. It is my opinion that "El Morya" is a figment of Madame Blavatsky, my mom’s, and others’ imagination. But I admit this is my opinion, since I cannot prove a negative (El Morya’s non-existence). John’s opinion about El Morya is an equal measure of conjecture, and therefore equally subjective.

"`It is time,’ Mother said, `to declare the judgment on the United States of America’" (p. 228). Mother always taught us to decree for the judgment of the dark energies working through the physical bodies (and chakras) of people. We were not allowed to call for the judgment of individuals. I believe that Mother was calling for the judgment of the negative energies being projected through all aspects of the United States such as the media, economy, the government, and so forth. Judgment does not mean destruction. It means separating good from evil, and that usually means energies working through someone and something. Corruption in the economy can be "judged" and the economy still left intact. Makes one wonder what’s happening now…

John, whatever you believe she meant, she said PHYSICAL JUDGMENT. I was there, and she said it. A favorite call of hers to make was "I demand the instantaneous and final PHYSICAL JUDGMENT of _________" (Insert name of enemy). All of us heard mom say that on dozens of occasions, on car rides, on walks, and in numerous prayer and clearance sessions. So tell yourself whatever you want about it if it makes you feel any better.

"’Archangel Michael, let the bombs descend!…I knew that she was no longer talking about spiritual bombs, but physical one" (p. 230). This statement-or should I say conjecture-is completely inconsistent with every decree session I experienced and every fiat I heard Mother make. How did Erin know that she heard Mother correctly or what Mother actually meant?

John, I was there and I can attest to this. I sent out that message verbatim that night on the shelter e-mail network. I wrote down what mom said and typed it out as instructions for each and every one of the other five shelter commanders (I was the commander in shelter #3).

"If she had been a little less in touch with reality and there had been a few more zealots on staff, we might have gone farther than simply praying to bring on a war" (p. 231). Well, it is highly unlikely that this would have happened, and to even suggest it adds a threatening, conditional tone to a premise that is fictional in the first place.

John, apparently you never heard of what happened at Waco? Of course it’s pure speculation, but with that many guns and an upset local population in Paradise Valley, and the involvement of federal ATF agents, you’ve got to admit it was an extremely tense situation. Again, Erin makes it clear she is speculating. Her point stands.


Forest service firefighters on precautionary alert.


Even after many of the staff had gone back to work, several dozen took shifts during the prayer vigil.


People decreeing after the fire danger had been reduced.


Stragglers continue to pray after even more people had left.


Heavy smoke at Ranch Office.


Local volunteer fire department engine at Ranch Office.

Comments (43 comments)

Catherine / September 27th, 2008, 5:40 pm / #1

Regarding the reviews of Erin’s book, I find the behavior of the people that are church members and attacking Erin no different today then when I left in 89. It was a society very much akin to the KGB, but a higher calling because God and the masters were involved, but believe me we all were trained to be narcs and rat out everyone that disobeyed a rule that was created by ECP. I have not read the book yet, but based on some of the content that I have read, I can attest to the truthfulness of some of what is said in the book. Believe me, I was there. Many of the people that are responding are the people that ECP never let in to her inner circle, they don’t know because they only saw her on the altar or when they were called in for chastisement or occassionally in the community, when she had her best foot forward, in most cases. Just because some of these people were on staff for 20 years does not in any way indicate that they had an intimate personal view and relationship of and with Elizabeth, her family, the Board, etc. This I think is the reason that they have been able to hold on to their dogma for so long, because if they saw the truth their whole world would collapse. It is not comfortable to review your beliefs and see where you have gone wrong and readjust, but adults do it all the time in life; what I see is a bunch of whining babies that want to believe their parents (or in this case Mother) are God and can do no wrong. Just like when I was a child and I believed that my father could pick up our house. By the way, my whole world didn’t collapse and I didn’t fight the realization that he couldn’t pick up the house. I suggest that everyone grow up and move on, believe what you want to believe but stop torturing everyone with it. True compassion and love is not based on believing that someone is infallible, but understanding that we all have our faults and you agree to still be in relationship to that person (or not), and all the while taking the good with the bad. I’m not doubting that these people have passion, but do they really have compassion? It doesn’t show from the remarks, just the very fact that they can bring up things about Erin’s psychology, etc. is just mean spirited. Even if I disagreed with the book, that would not be the basis of my argument. I know that I am opening myself up to the diatribe that we all learned in the church by even commenting on this, but I find it detestable for people that don’t really know Erin to tear her apart like they are some kind of authority on the matter, just because they were around the community for so long. Seriously dudes, no one is forcing you to read the book, it is not high school anymore and it is not required reading and you are not on some cosmic mission to defend ECP, by the way I thought that she balanced a 100% of karma so why would she even care? (Don’t answer that I know what you will say, I am well versed in church speak) Also, a footnote, there are much more serious things in this world for you to get upset about, why don’t you put your passion to work on bigger issues.

Abogada de la Diabla / September 27th, 2008, 9:33 pm / #2

Thanks for putting things in perspective, both in the post and the comment.

It is not comfortable to review your beliefs and see where you have gone wrong and readjust, but adults do it all the time in life; what I see is a bunch of whining babies that want to believe their parents (or in this case Mother) are God and can do no wrong. Just like when I was a child and I believed that my father could pick up our house. By the way, my whole world didn’t collapse and I didn’t fight the realization that he couldn’t pick up the house. I suggest that everyone grow up and move on, believe what you want to believe but stop torturing everyone with it.

I am also a close observer, and I can’t really add to the importance of the above statement.

victoria essex / September 29th, 2008, 3:20 pm / #3

Sean, are these your photos? I find it interesting that Erin did not include these shots in her book if they were available to support her points.

Jesse / October 26th, 2011, 11:38 pm / #4

Sean nobody owes you any expainations…Do you think you are God?Your just a child….

Abogada de la Diabla / September 30th, 2008, 1:07 pm / #5

Maybe because she didn’t think the story would be disputed, since her book approaches the infinity point of factuality.

Joseph Genito / October 12th, 2008, 11:55 am / #6

Dear Sean,

I stand forever in defense of the Divine Mother, of your father, Mark Lyle Prophet, and your mother, Elizabeth Clare Prophet, as messengers of the Great White Brotherhood, Church Universal and Triumphant, the Summit Lighthouse and the Teachings of Ascended Masters.

My concern is not whether Erin’s book is accurate or inaccurate; I am concerned for your soul. To take a stand against the Ascended Masters of the Great White Brotherhood, their Messengers and your parents, Mark Lyle Prophet and Elizabeth Clare Prophet, is no small thing.

The tears of the Divine Mother come from a place in a higher consciousness of fervent love for the souls of all peoples and the soul of Mother Earth. This place in higher consciousness is not seen by humans. I remind you that the earth was once flat–but absence of proof is not proof of absence–the earth is now round.

Why does the Divine Mother cry? She cries because those who are supposed to bring the Light of their inner beings and precipitate it on earth as peace, love and enlightenment have abdicated their reason for being. If there is not Light and goodness put into the earth, it will become darker.

My understanding of the purpose of the Black Sun Journal is to change the earth for the better through anger–especially by renouncing religion. I agree that most religions today are corrupt, but you don’t have to throw out the baby with the bath water. You may want to throw the bath water and keep the baby. You’re frustrated and want to get people to get out of their apathy and their ivory towers and to do something. You may change things through your hatred and anger, but it most likely will not be for the better. If you want to stop disease, war and corruption, you may want to take a deeper look into your being. I am sure that your religion bashing is not going to solve any problems. As far as saving the children from diseases, famine and war, I think we need to stop aborting millions of babies every year for the sake of sexual pleasure, so there will be some children on Earth left to save.

I don’t understand why you think that you have to change the world from a point of anger. Have you not seen the power of love make great changes in the world? I reference Mother Teresa of Calcutta and Padre Pio of Italy. Many millions of people were and still are moved to make their lives more meaningful because of the examples of these two who acted in a way that moved people.

I challenge you, Sean Christopher Prophet, to set an example that will make millions act to better their lives rather than keep following the downward spiral that the earth is caught in. When united in one cause, the people will win. The people united can overthrow the large greedy corrupt corporations, the corruption in government and the corruption and manipulation on Wall Street.

You could do so much good for this world if you had a mind to. Sean, I once saw the attainment of your inner being and it was nothing like what you are doing today. It was full of Light and expectancy that you could do something to make this world a better place in which to live. I saw it right on the physical level and realized that you could have all of your attainment for use right here on earth if you desired to.

In Hope,

Joseph Genito

Jesse / October 26th, 2011, 11:36 pm / #7

I totally agree with you Joseph…i dont know a whole lot about Elizabeth Clare Prophet personally but ive been listening to several of her teachings and so far i find no fault in her or her teachings.____They are real because i've live them and i still experience the supernatural and practical phenomenon that comes by way of them.She was teaching a higher science that Sean knows nothing about..Sean why dont you just wait and make your judgements and criticisms after youve spent a whole life time researching,collecting knowledge,travelling and have had some real experience under your belt and then you might have something to say.____Your not experienced enough yet and not very many are going to take you seriously! AND SHAME ON YOU for betraying your parents.They both were right on and know exactly what they are talking about..You just sound like a spoiled child vieing for attention but at the same time ruining your parents reputation and your own heritage. i dont respect what you have to say and how your saying it and you are going to really regret doing this someday…

BlackSun / October 12th, 2008, 1:13 pm / #8


Your comment violates the comment guidelines in about 4 ways. But since I’ve known you from the time I was a child, I’ll address your points:

I stand forever in defense of the Divine Mother, of your father, Mark Lyle Prophet, and your mother, Elizabeth Clare Prophet, as messengers of the Great White Brotherhood, Church Universal and Triumphant, the Summit Lighthouse and the Teachings of Ascended Masters.

Why would you give unconditional support to anyone? Why is your loyalty so cheap that it does not have to be earned by actions and good conduct? Why would a person of intelligence not modify their stance if their loyalty was betrayed? I consider your profession of unconditional loyalty to be naive and a bit pathetic. It makes a mockery of all those people who suffered the abuses at the hands of my parents and their authoritarian cadre of imaginary friends.

My concern is not whether Erin’s book is accurate or inaccurate; I am concerned for your soul. To take a stand against the Ascended Masters of the Great White Brotherhood, their Messengers and your parents, Mark Lyle Prophet and Elizabeth Clare Prophet, is no small thing.

First of all, I don’t have a soul, and neither do you. But if I did, I would be fully responsible for taking care of it, and would not need or want your concern. You think my stance is a big deal because it threatens your investment of time and energy. But what if you found out that the whole idea of the GWB was cooked up? I know that’d be pretty hard to swallow, but it looks like that’s the case. So deal with it.

As for your not caring whether she’s accurate or inaccurate, I knew that was the case from the moment your wife started circulating the email. You’re partisans, and you use post-hoc reasoning to justify your position. "Erin’s book would ruin my faith, and faith is what I live for, so it must not be true."

Why does the Divine Mother cry? She cries because those who are supposed to bring the Light of their inner beings and precipitate it on earth as peace, love and enlightenment have abdicated their reason for being. If there is not Light and goodness put into the earth, it will become darker.

You have provided no other evidence than your empty claim that there is such a thing as a "Divine Mother" and that "she" is crying. It’s a manipulative fiction. You should listen to yourself. In your world it might give you the perception of a moral high ground to say things like that, but to everyone else it sounds utterly ridiculous.

My understanding of the purpose of the Black Sun Journal is to change the earth for the better through anger–especially by renouncing religion. I agree that most religions today are corrupt, but you don’t have to throw out the baby with the bath water. You may want to throw the bath water and keep the baby.

Did you read what my purpose is? It a little more than what you say here: From the about page:

I started Black Sun Journal in 2001, ironically, weeks before the September 11 attacks. I had intended the journal to be a forum where I could discuss my views and experiences against the backdrop of my earlier life as a minister and VP of Church Universal and Triumphant. I wrote two original pieces called, “What is Black Sun Journal?” and “Why is Black Sun Journal?” Things have developed quite a bit since since I wrote these early posts, but they still capture the original spirit of what I intended to accomplish.

After September 11, 2001 much of my discussion centered around the national crisis.

But I also kept true to my central purpose, which was to explore the depths and Jungian “shadow side” of human nature and human psychology as they related to political and social events. A central theme was also the almost entirely negative effect of organized religion on the human experience. This topic for me is both intensely personal and political.

As far as anger goes? It’s a tool and a messenger, and it’s useful. It’s a part of our makeup as human beings. Sometimes we need anger, and sometimes we need love. But they are both part of a continuum, and one is not better than the other. They serve different purposes. Sometimes we can be angry because we love so much.

As far as the "baby and bathwater" thing. You guys need to get a new metaphor. I hear this from practically every CUT member who writes in. Look, the problem is that organized religion is an authority and hierarchy-based construct, and it always leads to corruption. Without checks and balances and empirical verification, people go off the deep end and start to espouse all sorts of self-defeating nonsense. They privilege their subjective experiences, and they abdicate their responsibility for their own lives, and it’s really a mess. You are pretty far gone down that road, my friend. If you want to understand what’s been going on with you, read Daniel Dennett’s Breaking the Spell. It’s an eye opener.

I submit to you that there is no baby. The teachings are self-contradictory and unsupportable, and you are extremely gullible if you refuse to even look at the possible contradictions. Especially when Erin did such a good job of pointing them out to you. If you go all the way back to Madame Blavatsky, you will find that she invented the personage of El Morya, Kuthumi, and others, and she engaged in the exact same types of abuse of power my parents did in their name.

Have you not seen the power of love make great changes in the world? I reference Mother Teresa of Calcutta and Padre Pio of Italy.

You really stepped into it with that one. I don’t know about Padre Pio, but Mother Teresa was a despicable monster. You should read Christopher Hitchens book about her. She accepted funds from Charles Keating (former S&L director) and dictator Duvalier. And she put this money into building up her name rather than relieving the suffering of the impoverished. Here’s an excerpt from an article by Hitchens, which doesn’t even get into the worst of her abuses:

MT was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction. And she was a friend to the worst of the rich, taking misappropriated money from the atrocious Duvalier family in Haiti (whose rule she praised in return) and from Charles Keating of the Lincoln Savings and Loan. Where did that money, and all the other donations, go? The primitive hospice in Calcutta was as run down when she died as it always had been—she preferred California clinics when she got sick herself—and her order always refused to publish any audit. But we have her own claim that she opened 500 convents in more than a hundred countries, all bearing the name of her own order. Excuse me, but this is modesty and humility?

Mother Teresa herself doubted the existence of God as shown by her own letters in these excerpts from Time Magazine:

"[But] as for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great, that I look and do not see, — Listen and do not hear — the tongue moves [in prayer] but does not speak … I want you to pray for me — that I let Him have [a] free hand." 

Although perpetually cheery in public, the Teresa of the letters lived in a state of deep and abiding spiritual pain. In more than 40 communications, many of which have never before been published, she bemoans the "dryness," "darkness," "loneliness" and "torture" she is undergoing. She compares the experience to hell and at one point says it has driven her to doubt the existence of heaven and even of God. She is acutely aware of the discrepancy between her inner state and her public demeanor. "The smile," she writes, is "a mask" or "a cloak that covers everything." Similarly, she wonders whether she is engaged in verbal deception. "I spoke as if my very heart was in love with God — tender, personal love," she remarks to an adviser. "If you were [there], you would have said, ‘What hypocrisy.’"

So if MT is such an example to you, shouldn’t that have some affect? Shouldn’t you question the existence of God also? That is, if you aren’t completely brainwashed and afraid to face the darkness–the desert of the real. Of course you’ll spin it as some sort of saintly crisis of faith or "dark night of the soul" that she ultimately resolved. The facts of her letters and her pitiless conduct toward the poor dispute that interpretation.

I challenge you, Sean Christopher Prophet, to set an example that will make millions act to better their lives

Joseph, I suggest you take a look in the mirror and challenge yourself. You are all worried about things like abortion when the earth itself is at tremendous physical risk from the unsustainable living being done by 7 billion people. Some of the worst abusers of the planet live right here in the USA, since we as 5% of the world’s population consume 25-30% of its resources. That’s something to get worked up about. Not this imaginary bullshit you’ve spent your life supporting.

I do what I can in the time I have available. My writing and advocacy are my example for now. Ending superstition and false belief is a must if we are ever to figure out how to share this planet effectively, and make it last as a decent place to live beyond the next few generations.

Your "Great White Brotherhood" is an Alice-in-Wonderland fantasy. Obviously, Joseph, I’ve made my choice, and I will follow truth, reason, and critical thought to the end. I have absolutely no fear about it. The only thing I fear is ignorance, and especially ignorance professed loudly. If the infinitesimally small probability of CUT’s threatened "final judgment" ever were to come true, I would stand unashamed with my middle finger pointed directly at the eye of God until the last nanosecond. (Because that kind of God, if he existed, would be a sadistic psychopathic tyrant.) I refuse to accept that the universe is run capriciously and irrationally, and if it were, I would want no part in it.

I hope I’ve made myself clear to you. Frankly I think it’s an utter tragedy you’ve become such a sheep and swallowed the lie hook, line, and sinker. Worse than swallowing it, now you’ve become a full-time apologist for the "liar and the lie." The "useful idiot" of the CUT meme replicators. How does it feel to be such a dupe? To delude others you must first delude yourself, of course. I hope you come to your senses and realize the ultimate value of your humanity and the preciousness of your human life (the only one you will EVER have) while you’re still breathing.

Black Sun Journal » Joseph Genito: Unrepentant Stooge for the ‘Messengers’ / October 12th, 2008, 9:37 pm / #9

[…] Now comes Genito with a BSJ comment admitting he doesn’t care whether the book is "accurate or inaccurate" he is concerned for my "soul." Bring on the violins. […]

AmenAS/H&F: .) / October 15th, 2008, 11:27 am / #10

Well for the record, Mother Theresa chose to help the inpovershed w/ the help of the Catholic Church. An organisation that thinks wearing $3000 outfits & jewlery is holy!? That deserves a WTF! ! ! Along w/ thier history, one has to be blind & in deniel! She compromised & obviosly wasn't all honest about her help & rescue solutions to poverty wking w/ that religious organisation! She's no saint to me! Maybe kind but not kind enough.

Jeff / October 15th, 2008, 3:22 pm / #11


I stumbled upon your website while being bored at work. I am a Montana native and new very little about the CUT. I was browsing some websites (Wikipedia, LifeInCut, others) and eventually found my way to your site.

I partially agree with your ass-ripping of Mr. Jenito as some of his statements sound pretty off the wall. I realize from the very few writings of yours that I read that you are vehemently anti-religous. That is fine. I’m not here to try to save any body’s soul, or to try to convert anyone.

I have one question and one observation.
Question: Does the idea or the premise of The Golden Rule (Treat other people how you want to be treated) fall under your definition of “organized religion”. If not, then maybe you should run your responses through that filter before you rail on them quite that hard.
Observation: Mr. Jenito hit the nail on the head when he asked you to reconsider your use of Anger as your principal emotion and vehicle to promote your ideas. Living your life in a near constant state of “pissed off” ain’t much of a life to live. You said it yourself, it is “the only life you’ll EVER have”.

PS: “Mother Teresa was a dispicable monster” WTF?!? You damn near lost any/all credibility with that statement.

Willard Bolinger / May 24th, 2011, 10:44 am / #12

the golden rule is common to all cultures but as with christianity certainly not consistently used in practice. Jesus(God) in Luke 19:27 "But these mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither and slay them before me". Also slavery was ok in his day and slaveholders in the U.S. found support in the Bible as their best sources. Killing of natives peoples throughout the newly discovered lands and islands were justified through the bibles. So wasthe burning of disenters found by believers in the Bible Jim Crow segregation was seen as devinely ordained by God. The immense damage to how people have been taught to think and what to believe through religion is beyond measure Actually being able to read the Bible to see what it actually sad lead me to reject it as was claimed by believers like my mother who was to afraid to question it claims . Fear of hell preventing her using her rational mind.

Jesse / October 26th, 2011, 11:40 pm / #13

I agree Jeff ..Who does this guy think he is critisizing all these people who are trying to help the world???

Jesse / October 26th, 2011, 11:41 pm / #14

Right on Jeff

BlackSun / October 15th, 2008, 3:37 pm / #15

Does the idea or the premise of The Golden Rule (Treat other people how you want to be treated) fall under your definition of “organized religion”. If not, then maybe you should run your responses through that filter before you rail on them quite that hard.


Of course I agree with the Golden rule. But what about the self-righteous condescension of the religious i.e. “I fear for your soul, the Divine Mother is weeping because of you, you are leading millions of people in a downward spiral.”

Isn’t that hostile rhetoric? Isn’t that about the most insulting thing a believer could say? (All in the guise of love and piety, of course.) Doesn’t it deserve every bit of anger and ridicule from a rational person?

As far as Mother Teresa? She’s a sacred cow. Of course I don’t expect instant credibility when I challenge her legacy. But it might get you to think about it and read Hitchens’ damning book about her. After you read the book, then we’ll talk.

Cheers and thanks for reading.

Jeff / October 15th, 2008, 4:29 pm / #16


Thanks for the response. Do I have to read the whole damn Hitchens book (I’ve seen your reference it in multiple places) or just the Mother Teresa chapter? I’ll see if the library has it…I can’t spend money on a book that trashes the greatest living woman of the 20th Century, can I?

I’ll probably check out your site once in a while. I think it is good to surround yourself with friends/information from all points of view. I have hard core Catholic friends, bible-thumping born-again, Evangelical friends, several American Indian friends that practice tribal beliefs, and quite a few friends that believe in somethig…they just don’t know what (is that called Agnostic)? So, congratulations, you’ll be my source of strident Atheist information. My Science-Only friend, if you will.

I’ll mostly read, occasionally comment. I did read your comment rules. I did like this part “As an alternative to these coercive systems, we advocate humanism, which is neither the enforcement nor the eradication of religion”. I’ve encountered a few Atheists that don’t even try to hide thier hatred toward any person that they think might harbor even a sparkle of belief in anything other than protons and neutrons. As long as discussions don’t devolve into playground shouting matches, I’ll stick around.

Till then,
Sliante (that’s Gaelic for Cheers)


BlackSun / October 15th, 2008, 8:16 pm / #17

Hey Jeff,

Here’s a link to the Google Book on Mother Teresa:

The Missionary Position

The other Hitchens book you should definitely own is:|

God is Not Great

I just have to add here, and this is all covered in Hitchens’ books. Whatever good may have been done in caring for diseased children is wiped out by Mother Teresa’s and the Catholic Church’s unbending opposition to family planning in some of the most squalid and densely populated areas on earth.

What have they done? Create an artificial problem through lack of access to birth control and abortion: too many people in too small an area, then build makeshift and haphazard hospices to deal with the inevitable human wreckage. Gain influx of charity capital, and instant saintly reputation.

And people fell for it.

H&F: .) / October 15th, 2008, 8:59 pm / #18

P.S. I wanted to be a Nun so devotedly growing up. I wanted to be an alter girl, so very much. Girls can’t be alter girls, thats why they r called alter boys. What! That’s not what Jesus would tell me!
I gained & learned alot form Mother Theresa but she like Elizabeth Prophet, the Popes themselves, even Martin Luther King, all were not what they were known to be! So called role models r human. Like Ghandi said, I’m not perfect & when I share my imperfection I do not share it to be condemn for it but so others may learn. Can’t quote, just repeating what I remeber as well as I can. Mother Theresa was a devotee but to what, how? She could have been more independant about her mission, rather guaranteeing her security being part of a clearly corrupt religious organisation, such as the Catholic Church. I understand ur feeling & opinions of M.T. I had them too. But enough is enough! The solutions to poverty need to be more effectivly addressed rather than in the same old damn way!!!!!!!!!

Jeff / October 16th, 2008, 8:11 am / #19

Re: Wold’s Over Population

The main complaint about Mother Teresa seems to be her affiliation with the Catholic Church. Most folks have very strong feelings about the Church (either pro or con). I’m not going to try to change anyone’s mind. The argument that I’ve seen a few people use to connect MT to the Church negatively is the fact that she/they do not promote population control (abortion, contraceptives, etc.). You are correct, they don’t.

My question is: Is this really a problem? Is the world really overpopulated? I’m sure a few of you have hard statistics to say that it is. I looked up a few for myself. Disclaimer, these numbers do not take into account food supplies, water supplies, etc. These are strictly Population/Land Area numbers.

Est World Population, 6.7 billion October 2008.
1 square mile = 27,878,400 square feet
If you gave each person 4 sq ft to stand on (24 in by 24 in), you could fit 6,969,600 people on a square mile.
You could fit the entire worlds poplulation on 961 sq miles.
Fort Peck Indian Reservation, Montana (my home) 1122 sq miles.
Rhode Island 1045 sq miles.

I don’t think that “the world is overpopulated” argument holds much water. You could bring the entire world’s population to Rhode Island….and we’d all have room to stand. Wouldn’t be a lot of room to do much else….but…..

BlackSun / October 16th, 2008, 10:36 am / #20

If you gave each person 4 sq ft to stand on (24 in by 24 in), you could fit 6,969,600 people on a square mile.


So glad you brought this up. It’s one of the most common misconceptions about the population problem.

Think of it this way. If all you were to do is stand there, no worries. But at 4 square feet, you wouldn’t have enough room to sit down. That’s 100 people in an average sized living room (20′ x 20′). Pretty cozy.

Now, imagine feeding those people. Suddenly, you need arable land to grow crops. You need someplace to put the waste generated. Not to mention resources used to build housing, transportation, etc.

If everyone in the world lived like we do in the U.S., it would take 5-10 earths to support them. Since we only have one earth, we live at the expense of people in the third world who live at below what’s called the “single planet” level.

As societies become more wealthy, birthrates seem to drop, but resource use rises dramatically.

There are two solutions to this problem. Control birthrates and change over economic processes to sustainable methods. (Eliminate fossil fuel use, reduce consumption of animal products [which use far more land than plant-based foods per unit of nutritional value] and implement cradle-to-cradle manufacturing methods.

This is far afield from the original post topic. But when you start considering population, you find it exacerbates nearly every problem we face.

Start by reading the Wikipedia articles on Carrying Capacity and Sustainability.

Jeff / October 17th, 2008, 12:19 am / #21


I thought the main basis of this site was scientific reasoning. I'm going to try to play by the rule "No broad-ass statements, without some sort of back-up". I gave hard numbers to support my opinion and my theory. I even pointed out the most obvious shortcomings. Do you have some basic stats to back up your "If everyone lived like we do in the US, it would take 5 to 10 earths to sustain us" comment. I am sure you didn't just pull this statement out of thin air to support your argument. Are you basing it on kilowatts of electricity that an average american home uses, calories of food that an average American consumes, BTU's of energy that we use to heat/cool our dwellings, fossil fuel consumption…..what? I wil freely admit that I have never researched any of these possible measurements. I will read the links that you posted, perhaps there is vast statistical information within them.

Amen AS/H&F:

I'm not sure what third world situation you are exactly talking about here, "People in poverty, who r only in that economic reality because of the white man trying to take over the world, didn’t care to treat these people they conquered w/ dignity & respect, thks to Christianity". Some posters were talking about population issues with India and China. I fail to see the correlation between these two countries and Christian conquerors. Perhaps you were speaking of the Western Hemisphere, or Africa.

"Native Americans still live in poverty on reservation! Why?!" I was born and raised on a Reservation and still call one home. There are many, many reasons for this. Most are caused by the US Government's handling of Indian affairs, and the reliance that has been created upon the Reservation system as a whole. This is a very complex issue. If you have any ideas on this topic, I would be more than happy to answer any of your questions, and entertain any of your possible solutions.

AmenAS/H&F: .) / October 17th, 2008, 12:28 am / #22

Sean, I read the links. Wow, it was alot to read! Really though, one just needs to see the conditions that babies r being born in, it’s a crime! People in poverty, who r only in that economic reality because of the white man trying to take over the world, didn’t care to treat these people they conquered w/ dignity & respect, thks to Christianity. Organisations responsible to deal w/ poverty have been failing to effectivly deal w/ the issue! Like for example, Feed the Children, they’ve been around since the early 1900’s. Every time I see their damn commercials they show me slums, but not the results to the use of the money they recieve! What the hech is that about?! Manipulating people to donate out of heartbreak & pity, that’s what those stupid commercials r about! Show me results from the money donated NOT SLUMS! Pathetic! And SAD! I have to say I believe & blame the the conquering races for alot of the poverty in the world, surpressing the races they conquered. But I know those races must have surpressed thier own people aswell but I don’t believe it was to the degradating extent as we know it today. Alot of ethnic groups teach this theory to why so called third world countries exsist, when they r the largest population on the planet. Native Americans still live in poverty on reservation! Why?!
Would u have any input on this?

BlackSun / October 17th, 2008, 10:27 am / #23

I thought the main basis of this site was scientific reasoning. I’m going to try to play by the rule “No broad-ass statements, without some sort of back-up”. I gave hard numbers to support my opinion and my theory. I even pointed out the most obvious shortcomings. Do you have some basic stats to back up your “If everyone lived like we do in the US, it would take 5 to 10 earths to sustain us”

@Jeff, Here’s a site with a calculator. Depending on how you live, it increases the number of "earths" it would take to support you (if everyone lived as you do). The calculation takes into account mineral resources extracted per person, acres of arable land for food production, waste disposal, etc. I’m sad to say that my score was 6.9 planets, which is typical for Americans. It will take both concerted effort by citizens, and government action to change this. But we can get to one planet living and have better lives at the same time if we only have the political will. Another site I like a lot is

The previous links on carrying capacity and sustainability are good, you might also want to take a look at the concept of Natural Capitalism.

@Amen, life on Earth has been a continuous competition for survival and resources. The winners write the history and the losers suffer various forms of degradation and/or death. The purpose of civilization is to blunt this reality a little bit (or at least transform the process into a slightly more humane version) but competition and domination will always continue in some form, even if it moves entirely into the realm of ideas. But that would be major progress.

Amen/H&F: .) / October 17th, 2008, 12:39 pm / #24

Is it really progress surpressing people to conform when they have no other choice?
Jeff, So u r a Native american?

Happy&Free: .) / October 17th, 2008, 3:16 pm / #25

Had written a question here, it’s disapeared, in the past when this happens it reapears later or the nxt day. So don’t know if it’s coming bk answered?
I’m writting this time because I realised that ur statement about competion & domination also applies to the religion debate, would u agree?
Though I don’t see it as the competion factor, it’s an ego arrogance / heartlessness in humans (specificly men at times) factor over what they deem inferior to themselves & therfore resort to ‘bully” tacktics to prove they r above to what is eating away at thier inferiority.
Love & lack of selflove has so much to do w/ the cruelity in our human history.
Thks for answering bk. Hope u haven’t decided to do away w/ my frist question/reponse.

Happy&Free: .) / October 17th, 2008, 4:02 pm / #26

Hello, so ur a Native American! Interesting how that’ came to the for front! I would love to be in touch. Can u ask Sean for my email? It’s better that way so I’m not giving it to everyone here.
I consider my self a Multi-racial Native American South of the Boarder ; ), Texas was Mexico!
I’m aware of alot of Christian ministries during the history of Britain taking over India having had so much influence even to this day that is connect to the conditions to so called third world countries. And China, even though religion is illigal, it’s practiced under ground.

Depression of a people, race is such a key factor to one’s lowly state. It’s the reason many Latino’s, like many Natives N of the Boarder r alcoholic. I’m aware of the addiction Natives have had to alcohol for to long. Emotions, the condition of the human heart, one’s mental well being has so much to do w/ all the injustices happening on this planet.
I would really enjoy alot of what u have to say, feel & think! K i T, ….

Happy&Free: .) / October 17th, 2008, 4:41 pm / #27

Correction, rushing to do my Mommy things & screwed up on punctuation & sentence format.
their inferiority..was suppose to be between what & is. …to prove they r above to what their inferiority is eating away at. This is th 3:16pm comment. As for the 2nd one 4:02pm, sorry about this, u all can figure out where the comas go, right?.

Happy&Free: .) / October 20th, 2008, 5:46 am / #28


Awesome! & Hello! I'm so glad I think & write as I do, otherwise, I & everyone else wouldn't have likely gotten to know all about this on u! Amazing what new things there r to learn about others, history & this Nations history aswell! Thks for writting bk! Thought for a moment there u weren't going to repond, maybe out of town? It's good of u to admire & continue to repect Mother Theresa for her positive reputation. I just got to a point of realising in life humans tend to settle & not question & investigate what is clearly suspicious, awkward, not right, &/or contridicting in nature. Sorry I came off a bit harsh! I rush thru some of these comments, not having time to lay it consideratly. I'm a Mommy & got loads of responsibilities. I'm soon going to have to lay low on writting into BSJ. I found ur input very essential to this site & am so glad to meet ur aquantence Jeff ! Thks agin for writting bk! Please do K I T! I look forward to ur input here on BSJ! It's been a real pleasure!



Jeff / October 20th, 2008, 11:36 am / #29


I am not Indian. I was born & raised on a reservation. The reservation I lived on was one of very few that allowed white folks to homestead (own land) within their boundaries. Make-up of the reservation is about 80% Native, 20% non-Native. My grandfather homesteaded and my family is on it’s third generation there. We are honeybee farmers. I have many Indian friends, including the son of a past Tribal Chairman (modern-day Chief), and a young lady who is working for a nation-wide program promoting all sorts of Indian issues (incl. healthcare, substance abuse, cultural pride, etc.)

I have worked throughout the US for the past 8 yrs as a construction engineer (heavy industrial) and will be returning to the reservation in the next few months to build a small natural gas fired power plant. I have been contacted by the local tribal communtiy college to help them set up their cirriculum to hopefully get some of their students hired in as skilled craftsman.

There is a lot of mis-information on both sides of the debate about the status of the Modern American Indian. I will be happy to answer anybody’s questions as truthfully as I can.

I look forward to checking this site every so often. This seems to be a meeting ground for people with very different ideas than I am normally accustomed. I consider myslef a pretty typical Montanan. Sean could probably tell you what that means. We are fiercely independent folks.


I still haven’t had to chance to check out many of those links, but I will. I took the “How Many Earths Quiz”. I was right in line with you. I got screwed because I drive a pickup (piss-poor mileage) and because I fly my own airplane as an extremely viable alternative. The lack of public transportation throughout the West is pretty bad.

Happy&Free: .) / October 20th, 2008, 12:53 pm / #30

P.S. Jeff can u share some oppinions & info on the whole Honey bee issue? How much have u noticed in thier decrease in the yrs uv done honey bee farming?

Myriam Koepcke / October 21st, 2008, 12:31 am / #31

I believe it is possible to find a Guru in every person. God speaks through them even when they don’t realize it is happening. Sometimes God challenges us to hear the message from an ant, and we choose to step on it rather than hear the message.

Myriam Koepcke / October 21st, 2008, 12:35 am / #32

Above post intended as response to Joseph’s message #5.

Misha Vargas / October 24th, 2008, 5:52 am / #33

Mr. Genito may have come up with a new tagline:

Black Sun Journal: Changing the Earth for the better . . . through anger.

Anyways, I liked this: “Sometimes we can be angry because we love so much.” I have found this to be true in my own life. I think disinterest and disregard are the far more dangerous phenomenons in this world. Oh, and faith.

AmenAS/H&F: .) &FED UP! / October 26th, 2008, 4:12 am / #34

I failed to add w/ Jeff, against the Harsh discription of Mother Theresa being a Monster by Sean (Blacksun)!! Come on, Really! She wasn’t perfect like every single Human being on this Planet, but describing her in the character of a Monster w/ a capital M, is putting it overly dramatic! As a Minister, u contributed in tremendously misleading the Youth in CUT/SLH, to a place of confusion & Heartache! Does This Make U A Monster?! ….NO! ….IT MAKES U HUMANLY INPERFECT ! I Realised as a child How Much Ur damn name as a person was constantly refered to As an Example to follow!!!! How everything u did contributed in the influence to how so many of us kids ended up thinking! To Go So Far & Call this woman a Monster (Who Has A Full Name Like the rest of us, not Mother Theresa, because I don’t share in the Catholic church’s affection or respect to call her by that title!) u would Have To call Urself a Monster Too! But I wouldn’t do that ! It’s Not Truth to do so! I wouldn’t choose to Play above one’s own Descrepinsies! But Be in a Constante Realisation in Humility, that one has contributed, with others in the area of Deception on this Planet & World! All simply because at the end, that one just wasn’t capable in thinking any other way at the time!! So were u Sean, thinking as you understood, up & down w/ the Teachings & being in a position as Minister, instead of ethicly steping down to find ur self, early enough in ur search ! Damn! Where do u come off calling her a Monster?! She was as stupid as U & me ! It’s Human Not To Be Perfect! And that imperfection is stupidity & all the other vices that r behind imperfection.
I addressed Big questions about Edward (that, unfortunatly I’ve forgotten the mans name, who brought it to light originaly) & u didn’t answer them. Edward is alive and Functioning without any Shame from what I can see! He was just as Bad as the whole CUT/SLH Hierarchy! I’m not aware of any apoligies by Edward for his role as Husband to ur Mother all those yrs. At the end, we have to Hold up to Our Own life Choices.
I’m going to end here saying, this woman known to us as Mother Theresa was Human like the rest of us. Ignor-rant, In Self Deniel, Dumb/Stupid, Unintelligent at Times, Cowardly and Paying Attention to the Needs of this or that in life – in her case the poor, Facing the Truth, Smart/Savvy, Intelligent at times and Couragous. We are all a little bit of everything, bad & good. When we r quick to insult another, we show we have forgotten this Truth.
I’ve played along & it’s been theraputic & sickening at times here at BSJ. I do not want to engage anymore in the “playground” mentality, insults & for me, unproductive debating while so much in the world is still a mess. My experiment has taken it’s toll. It’s given me closure to have been in touch with this site, but it’s time to move on….
I will still be recieving BSJ material so I can be in touch w/ the feelings & opinions stated here
that could be useful in my activities. Thk u Sean for the links to 2 of Erins interviews. I will be searching for her others in the coming wks. Thk U aswell for ur time, for creating BSJ & ur responses to my emails to u.
I want to leave everyone w/ the words: I Don’t Need a Leader & I Don’t want to follow Anyone, Be it a God, Jesus, Organised Religion or The U.S.of A. No One could ever Lead or Represent Me, Except Myself. I Desire to Follow Attributes & Qualities that would Lead Me in Leading Myself to Becoming the Best Person I Can Be. Something I’ve strongly learned spending to much time Following and Being Lead in life.
“No One can disapoint you, as long as you’re not Leanimg on Anyone.” Freedom & Happiness begins with oneself, not thru anyone or anything. Humans r Humans, so why’s everyone Bitching/Complaining?! When everyone could be taking care of It themselves! Why do we hire servants who end up doing want they want anyway; they have the last say to how much they get paid & when they get raises?! We make ourselves Fools believing in something that isn’t True & Real, always Destined to disapoint us.

BlackSun / October 26th, 2008, 2:59 pm / #35

Happy & Free,

She wasn’t perfect like every single Human being on this Planet, but describing her in the character of a Monster w/ a capital M, is putting it overly dramatic!

I refer to Christopher Hitchens research that documented Mother Teresa regularly withheld pain medication from the dying. This was because she encouraged them to embrace their suffering–that the pain was “Jesus kissing them” or words to that affect.

Anyone that sadistic is a Monster with a capital M, no matter what sacrifices they may have made, how hard they may have worked, or what their justification or fairy tale is behind it.

As for my role in CUT? That’s a tu quoque response. But it’s not even accurate. I never did anything quite like that, thank you. I may have been delusional, but would never have stood for deliberately inhumane conduct toward the terminally ill. I guess it’s good there are “levels” of insanity. For the most part, the damage in CUT was kept to the psychological, rather than the physical.

As for playground insults, it was you who engaged in the vast majority of the name-calling, capital letters, etc.. Amen, stick to the facts. That’s my recommendation. I wish you the best.

AmenAS/H&F: .)&Fed Up! / October 27th, 2008, 9:41 pm / #36

Sean, hi! Thks!
I’m not familiar w/ “tu quoque”? As for “Stick to the facts” Dragnet ; ), please elaberate.
About M.T. w/ holding pain medication from individuals who needed it, I never knew about this or remember reading it anywhere here. I understand more clearly now, ur use for the word Monster, w/ a capital M. * * Bang! Bang! You got me! I’m down and on the ground bleeding! But Dear Sir, don’t leave here on the floor to to die?!
I think/feel Monster w/ a capital M, applies more to Teenage Ganges, Organised Crime & Serial killers, than to M.T. Psychoticly deluisonal is more befitting to her state of mind, since she atleast showed & lived a claim of compassion for the neglected & impoverished, even though it was in the difsunctional way she understood it to be delt w/. Unlike Gangs, Organised crime & Serial killers.
This just shows us, one more time, how disfunctional, distructive & psychotic Organised Religion can make a human being become! Also, preferably, plain “Old crazy woman” would do best!
M.T. was once a child & influenced profoundly in someway to think & turn out as she did. As u have added for me & shed more light on M.T.’S state of mind. The lesson here too is, the reminder of Idiolitry w/ a capital I. We as humans need to stop idolizing people & take a step bkwards to take a better look, since we should know & understand better about our own human behavior thru personal experience. Keeping this in mind, making it a part of our identity, will help us keep better check’s & balance’s on the figure’s in life who claim to lead us in this or that. Who at the end, could not be leading us at all in the direction we r wanting or expecting (I made some reference to this in my last comment in the post about the “crazy” protesters). And therfore disapointing us. It is a crushing realisation when one has viewed anything in life, in the legnth of period they have, w/ adoration & it becomes a falsey! Whether it be Santa Claus (he was a real man though, so more a figure thru our history, this is how I explained it to my son & that people play, pretend for fun, during X-mass w/ his image), God, Angels, Fairies, Nature Spirits, M.T. herself, etc.
Never coming accross an expose’ on M.T.’S extreme practices is incredibly uncomprehendable to me. How this has been a failure in the part of the Media, is atrocious! What’s New about the Media though!
This just drives me more to gather non-denominational people together to form a Humane Organisation in Truly Helping the impoverished, neglected & ill in the world! Reasonable minded people have to Stop Religious Organisations in dominating this area of need ! I’m passionatly sick of seeing slums in “Feed the Children” commercials! Show me results from the funds received! This organisation has been around since the early 1900’s!
As u having been a Minister, I was trying to point out that one in such a position, who indirectly & directly, stood/supported ur Mother, the Teachings, statements in Dictations, lectures against abortion & euthanasia etc could also be regarded as a Monster w/ a capital M. That’s all, u know I am not calling u that? M.T. for me seems to be more of an ‘”Old crazy woman” rather than a Monster. Like I said, I feel individuals like Teenage Ganges, Organised crime & Serial killers apply more to that word w/ a capital M, rather than to M.T.
And yes, I didn’t forget of my 2 purposely engaged incidences, not vast majority, of necessary adjective discriptives, (he he he ;o naughty me!). This was an experiment to see the reaction to what would come about to pumping it up a notch, from what I already was seeing in many comments. I was looking for that individual or individuals (who I found, it turned out to be only one person, Kipp) who was going to handle it like an adult & not as a child. R.K. whined like a baby, John Livingston had violent images of throwing me off a bridge ( I am laughing right now! ). But Kipp, he handled it well enough as I expect an adult should. People as adults, physicaly develop to be adults, but still respond/feel towards things as they did when they were kids. Adults at times have a tendency to develope a maturity, that’s just all in their head, but when put to the test, they show how far they’ve come in their maturity of themselves. And that’s okey. I’m not & don’t put it down. It’s just important as humans we r aware of this reality about ourselves, to help us in our growth for better human relations between each other & other Nations. Name calling for me is closer to Moron, Idiot, A-hole, M-F**r, B-otch, Monster (because they don’t exist u know, wink ; ), Freak etc.(Out of curtesy I’ve rewritten them the way I have). As for ALL CAPS, that was simply to get the readers attention, emphasis (I wrote u telling u that). As LEP wrote “Listen to me”. Yes, please do! See My Words!
BSJ has it’s place in life. It’s style, the individuals who regularly comment & the way some choose to comment, It’s all good. My playground references Really, is to bull y go go da da (my nickname for him). He started picking on me, so I humorously engaged w/ him, throwing bk his playground tactics against my comments. Woopee, it’s been fun but he’s a cement head! He is like the people in the photograph on the “I’m embarrassed to share a country”. After Obama upsetting me w/ his weak tactical rhetoric, in his recent commercials here in Va, my fed upness has been on the intolerable! I got alot out of BSJ all these months. And will continue to do so.
We all have our stupidities, monstrous delusions, contribution to cruelities, everything people do & don’t do to deal w/ our world issues, bad/good it takes part of the Domino affect in lfe. Life’s outcomes are not entirely our fault, being a natural order of caos is in action thru every living force, whether it be human, animal, insect, bacterial, viral, a comet etc.
Facing the imbalances in ourselves, in turn we conquer the imbalances in our world. Fixing life begins at home, one’s person, Nation, Community.
Me & u, Sean (Blacksun) agree Organised Religion has got to stop being taken literaly and imposed on society by officials we elect, that is Government (I’m not chasing my tale this election for a leader who doesn’t represent me or my vision of fairness for the panet & our Nation. The majority will be doing that this election).
It’s been fun,
A Human Sister,
A.A.S./H&F: .)

P.S. Did u remember about ur Head n Shoulders shampoo?
I finally figured out how to wk those thingy’s on top of the comment box! Yea! By George I got it and right when I won’t need it any more. Well, I might stop here & there thru the yrs. Just have priorities I need to focus on. Peace &Love

Jeff / October 28th, 2008, 6:47 am / #37

There is a pretty good front page, feature article about Erin and her book in Montana’s largest newspaper. There is a feature in their on-line version that allows people to add comments about the article. It will be interesting to read them throughout the day.


I do have to agree with one of the early commentors, your sister is a pretty woman (innocent compliment, not trying to get under your skin).

christian / October 29th, 2008, 3:04 am / #38

Dear Sean,

Summit Lighthouse is an dangerous sect, which brainwashes its members…not only in USA but as far as Kiev. That is the case of my ex-girlfriend, Elena. For that resason we did not get married. She looks like an angel, speaking permanently of God and Angels, but behaves like a demon. Unfortunately her mind is totally brainwashed, and she cannot accept any rational discussion, whereas I tried to explain her all the lies behind all this New-Age stuff.

Best regards.

Nancy Couick / October 31st, 2008, 2:20 pm / #39

I see the comment about ‘unconditional support’ of the messengers occasionally.

I was in a domestic violence situation in my late marriage. I went to counseling several times as things got more difficult (he started out with verbal abuse and emotional controlling behaviors before moving into physical violence). Conservative church-related counselors would suggest that if I would just be more considerate, try harder to understand, and provide unconditional support, that it would be okay. Counseling often left me feeling responsible for the situations, guilty for not being able to fix things.

The church culture tended to favor gun ownership during the Gun period (1989-1992), and my husband had collected a few guns during that period. When he started getting more abusive and began waving guns around, I finally realized it wasn’t just my own safety (which I was willing to sacrifice), but the safety of my children and grandchildren.

When one enters into marriage, there is a covenant that is established. When one of the partners begins abusing the other partner, that covenant is broken by the person doing the hitting. It is acceptable to leave a relationship when there is abuse going on, because the abuser has broken the marriage covenant. The person leaving is NOT at fault. Staying in a partnership such as this does not help anyone. It certainly doesn’t help the abuser to heal. I knew when I left that I was possibly saving the life of not only myself, but of the children in my care. I also knew that it would be the only way for the abuser to get free — as long as I was available to take his abuse, I wasn’t helping him, either.

Moral of the story: it is unwise and unhealthy to give continuing Unconditional Support to any other human being without some type of guidelines or boundaries. It doesn’t help the giver, and it doesn’t help the recipient.

amina / October 31st, 2008, 4:50 pm / #40

Hi Nancy I know you from my time at the Ranch during the shelter period and I remember you as a very warm and dedicated person
besides, you were always nice to me
Iam sorry to learn you had problems in your marriage and happy to know you departed from that situation, which seemed the right thing to do given the details you give about your former husband
on top of drawing the limit, you have also teached your children and grand children a lesson to always respect themselves in relationships
I would like to share with you some of my research and obsevations about how to deal with the guilt of leaving your husband -desertion in a way – or the idea of “Ishould have been more understanding” or “more loving” or whatever you might have thought then
my opinion is that your husband was probabbly mentally ill, with some serious psychological trouble, perhaps paranoia with violent episodes , anxiety,etc
that were made worse by the paranoid athmosphere in CUT, caused by the mental illness of ECP herself
one can’t live with someone with such a disease and remain healthy, in fact these people tend to destroy everyone around them and they don’t even realize it.. because they are really sick
il you read about cult gurus , or about mental illness in general, and perhaps about paranoia, you will learn all about the incapacity for true of compassion these peple have because of theit illness
these people don’t have the ability to feel the pain they are causing others
they just can’t ,it’s like a “blind spot”
so it does not make any dufference to tell them you are in pain, because usually they don’t apologize and they will start again as soon as there is a trigger to their violence
they can’t help it , they don’t really have control on their reactions , it is a sad thing to realize
so the best thing is to respect oneself by taking a distance to save oneself the pain of being agressed and to help them be medically treated (if cou can)
they can make people around them depressed, anxious and even suicidal, because they never admit having wronged others , they just can’t see it
this is why I doubt ECP has really ever realized the harm she did all these years to so many people, including her own children (eventhough she is suposed to have “apologized”)
it does not match what I know about her type of mental illness (narcissism, paranoia, and psychtic epîsodes with temper tamtrums and verbal violence (calles “blue-raying” by the “chelas”)
the bizarre thing in this type of illness is that these persons can seem pretty “normal” at times in her behaviours, and have psychotic “episodes” at other times and go totally bananas
also there is an evolution of the illness(paranioa tends to milder up with age, for example)
although in the case of ECP she seemed to have several illneses cumulated : epilepsia, narcissism, paranoia and alzheimer disease
Ican’t even imagine how much it must have been hell for all those close around her
these type of persons is permanently in yension herself ans will maintain others in a permanent state of tension as well

this is what she did also with all the “chelas” : the CUT years Iremeber was always iabout being “in a state of emergency” : it was about nuclear attacks, but also about all kinds of world issues, or things like “benching Morya” (inducing terrible guilt feelings for all for all kinds of imaginary mistakes the “chelas” did ) , or horrible giant insects attacking the Ranch , etc etc

that last one I learned from her book was Erin’s invention, by the way- and it kept us busy a whole week in King Arthur’s Court waisting a lot of time energy and money to just get there and spend hoirs decreing for a totally stipid cause (instead of spending a nice vacation somewhere!)

but I don’t blame Erin, in fact I feel love for her because with such a mother it must have been very difficult for her all that she went through

one last thing : having a psychotic father or mother is like having an alcoholic father or mother, it is : like having NO FATHER OR MOTHER, because these parents don’t hold their role as parent

so mark abd elizabeth kids had to raide themselves, in some way, in a crazy environment where they had NO ONE to turn to and say : ” I can’t deal with this anymore”
no one to really protect them and care for them , because they were surrounded with “chelas” in admiration with their parents
ir’s worse than kids raised by foster families, because these kids at least get help from the government through social services
ECP kids and other staff kids were raised in a confined environment with psychiatric patients living their own delusions, but with no one to protect them from theit own parents abuses

sorry to say that

this church like all cults was : “Hotel california, the one you get in but can never get out”
does it remind you of something ?

amina / October 31st, 2008, 5:08 pm / #41

one last thing I would like to say :

for ECP kis, they also had to deal with incest in a symbolic way (incest in a spiritual and emotional way, and close to a physical way sometimes, since for a mother to ask her kids about their sexuality , or to make comments like “when you start having sex you will start loosing your Light” , so denying them a normal sexuality, putting them heavy expectations of “purity” , can be just as damaging as real incest

this question of incest is essential in this cult, because when you would become a member (“communicant” ) you had to go throug an interview with a minister of the church about your sexual habits and whether you practiced masturbation ! !!!
this single fact is sexually abusive and incestual vis-à-vis the “chelas” also

so I wanted to say that in reading about incest; what I learned is that the child who lives this type of situation is in very serious pain, and being manipulated in a very settle manner, since he has the choice between rebelling and revealing his pain or the facts (that usually he does not even know how to analyse as he is a kid) , OR “betraying” his parent and thus being rejected by his family, loosing his family environment ;

it’s an impossible choice that is very painfull to stand

AmenAS/H&F: .) / November 1st, 2008, 10:29 pm / #42

Hey Jeff,
What about those Honey Bee’s? R they decreesing terribley up where u r? What is ur oppinions on the decreasing population?

tartMoisM / December 31st, 2009, 2:51 pm / #43

Succour!!!! Anybody advised of of a honest lender that YOU in the flesh have acclimatized in the past? Essential recommendations fast.

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