Elizabeth Clare Prophet, 'Clairvoyant'


The above tagline (without the single quotes, of course) used to be one of the ways Elizabeth Clare Prophet was billed when appearing on panels or talk shows in the ’70s and ’80s. As a child, I remember first seeing the word clairvoyant and wondering what it might mean. Originally I thought it was wordplay on her middle name. When I found out the actual definition, I remember trying to wrap my head around how my mother would read auras or ‘know’ about things other people couldn’t see. As it turns out, my childhood skepticism served me well. Clairvoyance is pseudoscience. Despite people’s wish to believe, it does not exist. Not for her–not for anyone.

Few people consider the implications of true clairvoyance: It would completely rewrite the laws of physics. Knowledge of the future would violate free will and causality. Knowledge of the hidden could change the course of history. Think Pearl Harbor, 9/11, or the atrocities in Mumbai. No government could afford to be without armies of clairvoyants. Think of the lives that could have been saved had a clairvoyant warned of the impending Indian Ocean tsunami. If clairvoyance existed, we would live in a totally different world.

Of all the interesting connections I’ve made with readers, few have been as startling or gratifying as a series of recent comments from Harry S., former CUT board member and longtime companion and confidante of my mother. As Harry explains, he was also one of the dozen or so people she used over the years to do her frequent spiritual "clearance" work. Once she became a young adult, my sister Erin also filled that role, as she described in Prophet’s Daughter. What makes Harry’s story unique is his close access and knowledge of mom’s inner struggles well before she revealed them to Erin. He both confirms and elaborates on Erin’s account. He was there when ECP (as "Padma Sambhava") decided to announce that she had balanced 100% of her karma (a totally incoherent concept) and had advised her against doing so. He also watched her struggle with her inability to perform the feats she claimed. In the following paragraphs, he reveals the startling fact:

She was spiritually blind! She had no inner sight and she knew it–it was all a facade.      

In Harry’s own words:

i can attest to the fact that ECP was plagued with the ironic awareness that despite her position as messenger and despite her frequent tirades about staff being out of alignment for this or that reason, she was decidedly lacking the direct ability to “see” on the inner planes. This may be very hard for people to understand, but it was at the root of many of her lashings and thrashings of staff and others, as a defense mechanism for her own inability to perceive the subtle vibrations which were so fundamental to her teachings and role as authority, messenger, guru, and executor of discipline. I think Erin also mentions this in her book. Why else would ECP need Stanley, and myself, and Erin, and several others over the years to act as “seer” if she herself was able to “see”? This lack of inner seeing silently drove her to depths of despair, but she could never reveal this deep unfathomable secret to the followers. She had a layer of denial about her own inability in this regard lest the facade come tumbling down, but i was aware that she was aware of this fact. [emphasis added]

She was a master at portraying her supposed ability to detect any and all infractions or past lives or improper vibrations in the auras of others, but in reality it was for the most part her intellect and not direct vision which ruled those innumerable moments when she would act as though she was the all-seeing messenger. How, one might ask, can the Messenger perform the fundamental duties of taking dictations and being the mouthpiece of the masters, if her own “third eye” was not open to the inner planes? This is one of the many reasons she was tormented and paranoid and often given to fits of depression or states of megalomania. I am sure this will shock many who might read it, and seem impossible and not true, but this is what I came to understand.. One who is still a follower of CUT might argue that the Messenger while taking a dictation just needs to be the transparent “vehicle” and mouthpiece of the master, and need not be clairvoyant while taking the dictation and speaking the words. Mark spoke of the type of dictation where he “saw” the words in fire like a ticker tape in front of his inner vision, but ECP had a different experience and method which was not direct vision, and in my opinion she spoke the words and concepts which she imagined the master might speak if she were actually able to perform the function she was cast in, as messenger. Outrageus blasphemy? or painful truth to those of us who were enraptured before we managed to leave the fold.

Harry continues:

Aside from my other roles as staff member, board member, confidante and intimate partner of ECP, although i did not ask for it, seek it, intentionally train for it, or want it, i came to be appointed and annointed into the role of seer for ECP. The fact that ECP used a few selected people in this role was kept secret and very few knew of this process, except for the most inner of the inner circle, and family. I certainly knew it was not meant for public consumption, and was by its very nature, a confidential relationship of the most profound order. It carried the inherent gigantic irony which i mentioned the other day, that the messenger herself used others to perceive what she knew she could not perceive through her own senses.

This role gradually grew from ongoing conversation on a wide range of subjects, to formal sessions where we would sit together in private, where she would say something and ask what i saw. This happened right before dictations, as the congregation was “building the forcefield” and she had already been dressed and the time had come to walk out and do it. In those heightened moments, we sat together and she would bring up the most far and wide subjects, sometimes about staff infractions, sometimes about world events, sometimes on a subject she (or the master) intended to discuss. Being in that position started out naturally, but became a tremendous burden after a time, because it grew to almost an addiction of hers, It was as if her confidence in the seer became a palliative drug for her secret sense of self-doubt in her own abilities. She taught others adamantly about the error of letting doubt enter one’s being, and for the messenger to harbor doubt in her own capability to perceive subtle realities was beyond and over the edge of acceptabilty for her outer consciousness. And thus when she placed her trust in someone to tell her what was occuring in the domain of the supermundane world, she needed it more and more to support her deficit. I think Erin showed this also to be true in her riveting accounts.

The image comes to mind of a person without sight, a blind person, being led down the street on the arm of someone who is willing to be their guide. A dependence can easily evolve for the comfort of that aid, and although this is not a good metaphor since most blind people are tremendously self sufficient and strong, ECP let her weakness manifest with the use of those in that unique role.

So this preface brings me to the Great Delusion. The ultimate act of self aggrandizement on the part of ECP which elevated her for all time into the lofty position of a perfected being walking the earth, for all her followers to marvel at. She had been brewing inside her mind the idea that she was at the precipice of balancing 100% of her karma. She knew that if that were the case, surely her status would soar to new heights, and her grip on the followers would have a whole new level of adhesion. This concept which germinated within her own world, began to emerge in various words here and there and dropping of a hint and other ways. But then it came down to just me and her. Sitting alone with her, before she walked out before the gathered masses, we enteried into a session where the seer is asked questions by the messenger, and responds with the perceptions that flow into the visual mind space. She went right at the issue and suddenly i was trapped in the mental miasma of her own concoction of greatness…She said the master was going to announce once and for all time, that she had balanced 100% of her karma, and she asked me to confirm this. This was not the first time she mentioned this in passing, but this was the moment of truth. I sat there for a few moments, raising the antenna of perception into space, and i knew the answer to her question with certitude. “NO. I do not see that, and I do not think it is so.” Aside from the sense that this was simply not true, it was beyond just the perception of it…pure logic dictated that this was one of the most stupendous blunders she could make, to proclaim that idea to the followers. It simply was not within the realm of reality that she had become completely free of the entire substance of her past. I saw daily the continuing frailties and foibles and imperfections and holes in the fabric of her being, as did many others who were close enough to observe, and so it just was so far away from what i thought to be the truth. When i told her i did not agree and did not see that this was true, i perceived a shudder within the depths of her being, a recognition that she realized that i was correct and this was a Ploy with a capital P….but her invincible motivation to continually raise the stakes and raise her own apparent position on the planet and amongst the brotherhood, quickly closed the brief opening of awareness of turth, and the cascade of self delusion folded over her mind like a wave and i knew it was hopeless. From that moment on I knew she was going to go through with it, and though she did not argue with my response, she soon thereafter stood up and proceeded to walk out there and spew forth the fabrication of her own inner delusion,

This episode set a new tone between us….she knew i was not going to crack under even the most intense expectation and subtle coercion. So silently she respected that but was wary because almost nobody would ever question something of this magnitude. And the weight of the role of seer grew to monumental proportions, for me. It carried out into everyday life, when in the car, when at home, when at any moment, day or night, no matter where we were, she could and would expect me to immediately tell her what i saw in the inner world about something she just asked or said. I was expected to have one foot on the earth and one foot in the higher world, always ready to capture the vision of what was going on in those places where she could not see for herself. I even told her on several occasions that it was too much to expect that i could instantaneously and without flaw respond to her every query which would have required me to be sitting as an ascetic in some cave, not driving the big car down the road and at the same time look into the metaphysical world. But it was her nature to need it and want it and depend upon it, since she was increasingly making claims about herself and the movement which she felf warranted confirmation from someone outside herself.

Delusion followed delusion, and for me it spun out of control where i saw too closely what was really going on, and it was not a pretty sight. It was the vision of one who was deluded and delusional, but was willing despite her close confidantes, to go forward with claims and proclamations that at some place in her being she knew to be false.

In retrospect, it is clear to me that it was the stress of keeping up of with the appearance of her spiritual abilities which led to her chronic insomnia. I always wondered about the insomnia. It made sense to me that spiritual advancement would lead to inner peace. Or something resembling it. Instead, the bigger the organization grew, the more "opposition" she claimed to encounter. If decrees worked, I reasoned, the more people who decreed, the safer, happier and more at peace she should be. After all, she was building a bigger organization to do the "Lord’s" work–she deserved the full measure of the "Lord’s" protection–including for her psyche. Couldn’t Archangel Michael spare his servant this level of inner torment? Instead, her success seemed to have the opposite effect.

For several years in the late 1970s, she had to be driven around the back roads of Los Angeles all night in her tour bus so she could sleep. That was way before cell phones–I knew if I wanted to see her or ask her a question, I had to look for the "gold bus." It was a little ritual for me to check and see if she was on the premises. After a while, she established a 24-hour personal prayer (decree) "tag," often with half a dozen people decreeing in a utility closet or on the bus or wherever they could find to be near her and yet out of the way. Interesting how they had to be nearby–spiritual energy wouldn’t seem to be location-dependent. Still, the muffled hum of rhythmic voices in nearby rooms was ever-present for our family. And even that wasn’t enough. Eventually, she rented a series of houses directly on the beach in Malibu. She loved the sound and smell of the ocean and she seemed to sleep better there. But everyone on permanent staff knew she had this problem, and it never fully went away. It seemed to be worst during conferences, especially in the later years. It was passed off as a symptom of her carrying "world karma." Kind of like Jesus carrying his cross. Note how the believer rationale glorifies this "noble" masochism. Anyone else would recognize her "cross" for what it was: guilt.

Comments (103 comments)

William Brookhaven / December 8th, 2008, 9:43 pm / #1

Harry S. – I appreciate the thorough answer. Thank you. In your last post, and another post above, you have talked a lot about the (unseen) forces ECP was doing battle with. You mention that she would make calls on “entities” that were attacking staff members or herself, and I don’t get the impression from what you are saying that her “seer” told her about these things. It appears that in these cases she did not need a “seer” to tell her that her calls were needed in a particular direction. And the amount of passion she put into those calls, from your description, seems to point to the possibility that what she was reacting to, was influencing her in a powerful manner. It sounds like she had some kind of internal antenna in this respect to register the activity of these “entities”. Could you clarify that? If she had such an internal antenna, why did she need a “seer”? And perhaps this goes to the same point. In your use of the word paranoia, are you communicating to us the idea, that in your judgment, that these “entities” were complete fantasy? And that she was putting all of this enormous energy into doing battle with things that did not actually exist?

becky lipinski / December 8th, 2008, 10:12 pm / #2

Thanks much, Harry! I’m sure I’ll continue to chime in from time to time. In the meantime, if you do decide to put pen to paper , I’ll be happy to offer any assistance I can. Sean has my email address. :)

One clairification: Although I’m not entirely comfortable with publicly sharing some of the specific private episodes I witnessed, I certainly didn’t intend to suggest that it would be wrong for you to share yours, especially in the format of a book. Obviously, the totality of what you have to say would require the disclosure of some very intimate experiences–and I understand that completely.

Nancy and Louis: I suppose there IS a Theater of the Absurd quality about CUT chelaship–and humor is often the best way to diffuse both pain and anger.

I’m still chuckling at the ashtray entities. Dude!

William Brookhaven / December 8th, 2008, 10:17 pm / #3

Quoting Louis – “How come I could attain a sense of peace, and establish a forcefield of light and feel fortified by it, and others would become so discombobulated? That is when the subjective, vs objective experience started to weigh on my mind and I began to wonder, what portion of this is self generated, and what portion is objective? What portion of this, isn’t just in ones head?”

Louis – I take that as sort of a witness to some dimension of functionality in regards to the path you were on. Even if it was just inside of your head, as you say, I am just wondering, isn’t it better to have a sense of peace, and the feeling of fortification, inside of your head, than something less attractive? Even if it is self-generated, how many people would like to know how to “self-generate” a real sense of peace and fortification?

Or did you finally conclude that your sense of “peace” and “fortification” was actually not real, that it was a fantasy, or a figment of your imagination? That the “peace” that you felt, you never really felt? That you were somehow being manipulated into feeling something that was not real? That you were somehow being tricked into feeling something good, so much so that you would attach the word “peace” to it, yet you discovered that it was actually not real? Please clarify.

Nancy Couick / December 9th, 2008, 12:02 pm / #4

By 1986, the organization was deeply immersed in the Mull trial. In ’91, we had the shelter cycle and the gun crisis. In ’96, Ms. Prophet was pregnant & gave birth. These things took presidence over personal teaching of classes. Classes relied on teaching assistants and staff, who utilized a great deal of taped materials from past classes.

There’s this place in human consciousness when and where we “click in” to something that seems universal. When musicians go into this zone, the music almost seems to play itself. When volleyball players go there, they spike that ball perfectly every time. When it happens to someone in church, they might feel like they’re existing on a different plane — colors are brighter, sounds are purer. Maybe they see violet flame or angel shadows in the corners of the tent, or auras of other people around them. [It happens occasionally when people take certain drugs, too.] What causes this blissful phenomena? Is it just extra seratonin in the brain, or triggered by 12 hours of steady decreeing plus raw vegetables for lunch? Or following certain rituals repeatedly? How does seeing angels differ from seeing devils and having a paranoid reaction?

It seems to me that no two people will react exactly the same way to the same stimuli. I’m voting for psychological and physiological reactions to chemical triggers within the body, along with past training, experience, etc.

I think most of us love that place of heightened preception; being able to play that music effortlessly, coming up with some brilliant ‘darshan’ for a class, slam-dunking that physics final at school…..

This type of ‘click’ usually comes after investing a lot of personal time and energy and attention into the activity — studying the Teachings or observing the solar system (the earth is NOT flat, and it goes around the sun!!) or practicing for the Olympic Swimming contests. A lot of us found those places of bliss occasionally through a disciplined application of some of the CUT program & materials. That was one of the stated rewards for following the program, after all.

Still, Hell was also part of the CUT doctrine, and that can evoke a fearful reaction. My chemical reaction to some of the materials was fear. Devils and entities and mechanization man….. spending a couple of hours swinging a sword has got to have an impact on one’s psyche.

I think that Ms. Prophet may have been acting from both of these extremes (bliss/fear) at times, and that there was a strong chemical component to her activities and behaviors. She was so heavily invested into the whole setup, it had to trigger extreme reactions, and extreme reactions can cause physical illness.

On a separate topic: Yes, I heard about Ms. Barrick a couple of years ago. I guess it means that we all have the chance to be saints, eh? I guess I’d call her demeanor ‘severe’. ‘Reserved’? She didn’t seem to be particularly happy or joyful or even at peace. I suspect that she had her doubts, buried deep down inside. She was my commandant from 1983 through to 1997, and we crossed paths several times.

Louis / December 9th, 2008, 2:28 pm / #5

Louis – I take that as sort of a witness to some dimension of functionality in regards to the path you were on.

No, I am not endorsing the efficacy of any component of this spiritual path.

I am not sure I will be able to clarify anything for you, based on your style of questioning, because it sounds like data and statistics are a language you’d understand. All I have is personal anecdotal, and that is worthless. It has absolutely no validity whatsoever.

So to be clear, I am not witnessing to a dimension of functionality.

Even if it was just inside of your head, as you say, I am just wondering, isn’t it better to have a sense of peace, and the feeling of fortification, inside of your head, than something less attractive?

The simple fact that I have no further interest in pursuing these practices in a more clinical fashion to acquire hard data, should speak volumes. 8+ years is a sufficient time frame to convince me that any further pursuit, would be an even greater waste of my time.

I no longer decree (or pray) and I no longer meditate.

Even if it is self-generated, how many people would like to know how to “self-generate” a real sense of peace and fortification?

I have experienced tranquility throughout my entire 39 year lifetime. I can very much say that a spiritual path isn’t a prerequisite. As for that fortifying forcefield of light? I’ve gone for over a decade without it and I still have many moments of tranquility.

What I was speaking to in my initial comments, wasn’t about functionality, but how the application of spiritual techniques (visualization & decrees) produced dramatically different experiences, depending on the individual. I agree with Nancy’s take:

It seems to me that no two people will react exactly the same way to the same stimuli. I’m voting for psychological and physiological reactions to chemical triggers within the body, along with past training, experience, etc.

Yes, some people are happy drunks (that’d be me) and for others, the uninhibiter of alcohol, lets the A-hole come to the surface.

“It wasn’t me, it was the alcohol… I am sober now”

“It wasn’t me, an alien scientist shot me with a tranquilizer pen and implanted me. That device and the robot secret agents monitoring me on the inner planes, was causing my out of alignment state… Archangel Michael finally cut the device away and bound and removed those robot agents”

Or did you finally conclude that your sense of “peace” and “fortification” was actually not real, that it was a fantasy, or a figment of your imagination? That the “peace” that you felt, you never really felt? That you were somehow being manipulated into feeling something that was not real? That you were somehow being tricked into feeling something good, so much so that you would attach the word “peace” to it, yet you discovered that it was actually not real? Please clarify.

The practice of stilling the emotions and quieting the mind, or doing focused visualizations (meditation) was something I was already practicing coming into the movement. So decrees (and the teachings specific visualizations) where added onto that framework.

I’ll emphasis again, I no longer decree (or pray) and I don’t meditate. I don’t miss it.

A nice hot bath, or a walk along the beach, good music, even a good meal and a couple glasses of wine… there are plenty of techniques (all worldly) that I employ to relax and de-stress. The mind and emotions become tranquil. No spiritual practice necessary and it still feels good.

Becky, I am also very much appreciative of your presence here, as I am to Sean for hosting this blog. This virtual venue has been a good outlet for that cosmic drama/nightmare.

amina / December 9th, 2008, 3:23 pm / #6

well, well
the more Ilearn the more Iam happy I escaped this dementia
I realize ECP used “seers” all thr time
in the 90’s she used smeone else (I guess after Erin left?)
as a “seer”, which was her hairdresser, I think, to tell people their level of karma
some people were told in KING ARTUR COURTin front of everyone else that ther prayers and decress for years and years were useless and that they were basically fake ‘”chelas”
i remeber one partocular person that I know who was told that, but that lady is still in CUT !!!
also I would like to kwow why is that “communicants” had to send with their application a photograph of their hands with both sides?
what was that for ?
some kind of manipulation scheme again ?
also : one must know that many people who were kicked out unfairly were also awfull themselves to others at times, I can think about many people I knew while in CUT like some SU teachers , who were cold and tyrannic to people who would get tired or harrassed of so many hours decreeing or listening to all that brainwashing we got
they would make you feel like sheat (excse my language) and at the same time make you undersatnd you were getting the greatest dispensation (blessing) in your life to go to heaven(‘

harry. s. / December 9th, 2008, 4:28 pm / #7

You ask if i realize the blue ray stuff i talked about were just {ECP’s} psychotic episodes… In my opinion, some of it was just a very brusk and out of control temper. Some of it was an overwrought sense of righteousness where she thought that in her role as “messenger” she had the authority to blast away at anyone at any time she heard or saw something that did not please her. But some blue ray blast episodes i thought were totally uncalled for and bordering on something really wrong, perhaps neurotic, maybe psychotic, but certainly leaving the staff member withered and burnt and feeling very low. Even those staff who prided themselves on taking her outbursts with no visible depression or skipping a beat, i could usually see the deflation in their emotions and minds from undergoing what was sometimes a blistering torch of fire coming out of her mouth. I was sometimes stunned at how she belittled them, in the name of her master morya, thinking at the time that this was her, not him, who would exhibit such behavior.
So in no way do i excuse her so called blue ray method, though i do understand the premise of chipping away at the ego in the process of soul attainment, to the extent that concept is valid. I have never seen any other guru or spiritual teacher that even came close to the intensity of her verbal excoriation. i do agree that it at least bordered on mental instability if not clinical psychoses, but who could really argue against the notion that it was indeed incredibly painful. She maintained that it was healthy, stripping the ego of the chela, sometimes shouting about things from the person’s past life of which they were not even aware, so these reasons would moderate in her mind the severity of the moment. I usually felt really bad seeing these people who slept on the floor, who worked all hours into the night, who decreed for her without her ever even knowing it, who gave their life savings, and yet she would not hesitate to flail away when she saw fit, or sometimes just suddenly. The myth grew that it was a badge of honor to be verbally disciplined, but retrospect gives the lie to that myth.

William, you ask if ECP had some kind of antenna with which she detected the “entities” attacking which implied she did not need a seer since she was able to see herself what was going on with the entities…i would say no, it was something different. As i explained, in my opinion she was mostly devoid of a sense of inner visual seeing, and she only feigned being able to see into the inner world. Instead her reactions or sensing of entities or attacks were more feeling angst, or nervous, or ill, or sleepy, or maligned, or one of many uncomfortable feelings, to which she ascribed various entities or energy from dark forces. This is why i use the word paranoia to describe some of the behavior. Instead of her accepting and perceiving that she was tired or feeling ill, or sleepy, or nervous, almost everything was attributed to some outside force intentionally trying to cause these bad effects, with evil will. Sometimes we hear that after some maniac has murdered, he claims that something whispered in his ears to do the dirty deed, so it came from outside. For those who believe in entities and fallen angels, those claims of “the devil made me do it” have validity, but others maintain that what happened inside his head but projected to an outside agency, is the substance of mental disease and hallucinations.

amina / December 9th, 2008, 3:37 pm / #8

well, well
the more I learn the more Iam happy I escaped this dementia
I realize ECP used “seers” all the time so it means she was fake all the time
Harry, do you realize the “blue ray stuff” you talk about were just psychotic episodes
ECPwas really ill, my GOD !
all these guns ans stuff
no wonder why she had people buy guns later during the shelter periode
the poor guys who were caught and sent to a court of justiice were just tele-guided by her madness
poor Erin and SEAN, I am sorry for both of you, with such level of madness around you

I know that in the 90’s she used someone else (I guess after Erin left?)
as a “seer”, which was her hairdresser, I think, to tell people their level of karma
some people were told in KING ARTUR COURT in front of everyone else that ther prayers and decress for years and years were useless and that they were basically fake ‘”chelas”
i remember one partocular person that I know who was told that, and was devastated, but that lady is still in CUT !!!
also I would like to kwow why is that “communicants” had to send with their application a photograph of their hands with both sides?
what was that for ?
some kind of manipulation scheme again ?
also : one must know that many people who were kicked out unfairly were often repeating the role model of ECPherself and were very tyrannic themselves towards others
you could be persecutor one day and victi mthe other in this disfunctional family, , because that was the system in this organization; one or the other
I don’t remember myself that I was such a mean person to others, but my own family told many times I had become intolerant anf rigid (no black, no sugar, no alcohol, no rock and roll, bla bla bla)

I can think about many people I knew while in CUT like some SU teachers , who were cold and tyrannic to people who would get tired or harrassed of so many hours decreeing or listening to all that brainwashing bullshit we got
I was myself mistreated because i was getting very tired of all that crap

they would make you feel like sh… (excuse my language) and at the same time make you understand you were getting the greatest dispensation (blessing) in your life to go to heaven , so it made you fell horrible

in fact in this curch we attached more importance to being masochist that to be joyfull and happy and we attached more importance to dead people than to living persons

William Broohaven / December 9th, 2008, 8:22 pm / #9

quoting amina – “I know that in the 90’s she used someone else (I guess after Erin left?)
as a “seer”, which was her hairdresser.”

amina – Please give us an idea of how you know that. Is that first hand knowledge, from the hairdresser herself, or is that information second-hand? And do you have a name to go with the hairdresser? You mention that this person had something to do with the subject of karmic levels, and I am wondering if this “seer” might have been the source of the 1997 karmic readings that were later published I believe in the Pearls of Wisdom. For example, Marilyn Barrick (who later died of some kind of throat cancer) was said to have balanced 70% of her karma.

William Brookhaven / December 9th, 2008, 8:49 pm / #10

Harry – Again thank you for your further response to my additional questions. And here is another one. When you were sitting across from ECP during her work periods did she ever consult with you in regards to the content of correspondance that she received from members, asking you go into your “seer” mode to help her answer the letters? Did information which you supplied (from the “seer” space) ever go into correspondance to individual members? That is, with the signature of ECP at the bottom?

amina / December 10th, 2008, 3:35 pm / #11

Hi, William,
to answer your question about the period, this hairdresser episode was indeed around 1997 and i think it has to do with the so-called “karmic readings”
at that time I had returned home in europe but was still member of the church, and i exited CUT somewhere around 1998 after reading the cut-info web site that was put up at the time by ex-KOF
in this site many people discussed the karmic readings and said they were told by ECP’s hairdresser, so this is how i know
maybe we couls ask other people
shortly after that ECP was diagnosed with demencia
so it made sense to many of us that the karmic reading thing was her last crazy action before she was totally “out” of her mind
i did not receive the pearls of wisdom you mention , about info on marylin barrick or other people
so what i know is not first-hand information but i was at the time in close contact with people at the ranch or in glastonbury who were present during the karmic readings period and confirmed what i read in that info-site
a lot of people in the church knew about the karmic readings, because information circulated fast in the community, since everyone knew someone who knew someone
it was a fairly small community in fact, and people knew each other fairly well because we wouls spend hours together decreing and so forth
i miss that part about the spirit of community and that we shared the same values
for example you could live your purse somewhere in the middle of the cafeteria in church ground or onthe floor in some field outside during conferences with 2000 people around and nobody would take anything
you had never to worry about your belongings
also you would always find a helping hand and someone to lift you up
it is really nice to think it exeperienced this, and the peoplein this church were so nice, i have never found that anywhere else !

harry. s. / December 10th, 2008, 5:58 pm / #12

I think one of the most reprehensible and wrong activities was the idea of “kermic readings” by the “hairdresser” or anyone else. What do you think the chance is that there was truly accurate information being given in cases, for example, where they proclaimed that someone had balanced 70% of their karma, or that some person had engaged in a specific act hundreds of years ago? NONE. And it sounds so much against anything any master or wise person would say is a righteous act…to publicly announce what some untrained psychic charlatan conjures up on a subject which is so potent to the person under consideration. What about the completely ridiculous presumption that it was ok to make such proclamations to groups of staff who had no right and no business and no reason to be part of any such information?. I do not know how it started or what the rationalization was for “karmic readings” but it turns my stomach to know it went on. Assuming for the moment that masters are real, is anyone to think they would condone public revelations about staff members’ karmic condition? I say no way, no how. To me that is a degradation and a breach of privacy and totally wrong. And to answer your question, although ECP privately discussed staff issues with me, no, i never would go to that space or place to attempt to peer into the private inner life of anyone and no i did not engage in sessions where she would ask me to perceive personal information that she then would write in a response letter under her name. She tried to get me to go there in the case of her own father, and i stood my ground and took a pass. It sounds to me like that pitiful process occured later in her descent into any means to capture the fascination and adulation of staff…of course, the power of portraying peoples’ karmic records could only be done by a true “messenger,” right? The whole concept is against everything we were led to believe is appropriate.

William Brookhaven / December 10th, 2008, 10:48 pm / #13

amina – Thank you for the clarification. Yes, it would be good to find a more solid source for that particular piece of information. It would be very interesting to know exactly where the text of that karmic reading orginated. Regarding your other observations, I think that even Sean would agree with your assessment of the general character of the church membership in terms of their general moral behavior as you noted. I wonder if Harry S. would concur?

William Brookhaven / December 10th, 2008, 10:50 pm / #14

Harry S. – Thank you again for the response. I find your objections to the 1997 karmic reading episode reasonable. I don’t claim any orginality in thinking on this issue, having picked this idea up from the writing of another, but I find merit in the opinion that one of the great evils of that episode was to fuel a condition of idolatry in the staff, and membership generally, in relationship to these individuals who had supposedly balanced more than 50% of their karma, making them ex-post-facto candidates for the ascension, raising them up as little embodied gods in the eyes of others. Idolatry was supposed to have been one of the great evils. And yet, here we have the messenger fanning the flames of that very evil.

On the subject of being “Blue-Rayed” by ECP (1973-1981), did she give you a pass on that, given your position? Or did you get your share of it too?

Alexandro / December 10th, 2008, 11:11 pm / #15

Sean, I’ll open on a personal note, not necessarliy for everyone, to tell you that my five kids and four grandchildren are all doing well. Genevieve and Bernadette my two eldest , whom you recall, are married and live nearby. In fact Joyce does daycare for their kids, so we see them almost everyday. Besides that I have Therese, studying nursing at the U of MN, Kent, our only guy, is down at the U of WI in Madison and we have 11 year old Isabelle here at home. So our kids are still a big part of our existence.
Joyce told me she had seen you at one of Mark Pelletier’s parties a couple of years ago when I was down in Mexico and I was sorry I missed you. Even though we decry the craziness and the bad aspects of the community I still have a great love for and fond memories of many who were there with us and were a part of our life. You and your sisters have this huge extended family. Sometime if I’m in the LA area I’ll touch base here and see if we can connect. I’d love to see you sometime.
Regarding Alex’s book: I haven’t talked, or corresponded with Alex Reichardt in decades, although I know that Joyce did send him Tom Miller’s video. That’s the extent of my co-author status. And I’m not sure I care enough to talk to him about it. What good would it do? Although I did care enough want to set the record straight with you!
Enough of the personal

I want to share on the postings my sense that what went on in the CUT / SLH community was far more complex than the victimization of people by a delusional person. But there was more to it. People joined for an infinite number of reasons and wanting something. Some got what they wanted and some didn’t. Many thought they had found what they sought in the form of a community of fellow spirtiual seekers led by a charismatic leader with a vision. Even if they couldn’t understand the entirety of “the teachings” they felt the momentum of the community . Many who arrived set aside their addictions, lack of direction and personal hang-ups to join, and within a few weeks or months they could look back and feel they were better off than when they walked in the door. That was a defining realization for them. Some were not even especially spiritually inclined people, they just found a place in life to plug in. And I suspect that for many, especially those that never got out, that feeling never left and that was or is enough for them; they continue to value the direction they get and the community that surrounds them. Those people were able to do some kind of mind trick where they did not notice the contradictions or instead attributed them to minor shortcomings of the messenger or her staff that were insignificant because the Masters had strange ways that were unknowable to lesser evolved humans. I think those people, may still be getting what they want from CUT and many are satisfied even as they deeply resent those who have left and criticize their community and leadership.

But for many others,including I think myself, that same dynamic that pulled them up when they joined the community eventually, as they grew up, became a restraint that kept them back, kept them from growing up, increasing in knowledge, taking on more responsibilities or and even growing spiritually. Over time a new dynamic took hold— the community held you back. I think this was especially true for those that ended up working in closer proximity to ECP. The relationship with her was that of being a perpetual child or being in denial about her controlling and erratic behavior. And I’m not denying that there were moments around her when the wackiness was temporarily set aside and she sparkled, she was charming and you felt a kinship, a sense of having a heart friend who was with you in this great cosmic endeavor. There undeniably was that. But it was also near impossible to be close to her and continue to believe that something entirely spiritual, as normally understood, was going on. At that point you had to either beat your concience and your mind down or you had to look for a way out. When Harry writes about those moments when he had to dig in his heels and refuse to go further with ECP, those are defining existential moments that many had. Maybe it was something as seemingly small as the hypocricy about near beer or , maybe it was the accumulation of many, many small things that brought that inner “Enough!” out and catapulted someone out and into the real world.

And probably you could say that there was another category of people that had a run in with someone up or down the leadership, or for some other reason was not alllowed stay long enough to mature in the community and outgrow it. They often left with a profound self-condemnation and sadness, or a resentment, or a desperate need to find comfort and belonginess whether it be in another church and community or relationship.
Probably someone else could list many, many categories of people that made up CUT, and each person’s story varied. And not every one was merely the story of someone being duped or duping others. It wasn’t all transparent and obvious when you were in that drama of the community that had it’s own momentum aside from that of ECP. I think that’s important to state. People sought and got something out of the experience and the fact is some are still back there thinking that they’re getting a real benefit. Yes, I know it’s delusional, but it’s also complicated.

Nancy Couick / December 14th, 2008, 10:20 pm / #16

Looking back over the last 65 comments on this article, it strikes me that many, many ‘chelas’ and people involved with TSL and CUT had serious questions about the reality of clairvoyance, and about the truth of clairvoyance within the ‘church’, all ‘churches’, their own lives, and life in general.

The discussions within the context of this article have been very enlightening for many of us, I’m sure, and I thank all those who have contributed. I has helped me enormously, and has contributed to my understanding of clairvoyance and several related activities.

Nancy L. Couick-Rubinstein

BlackSun / December 17th, 2008, 11:36 am / #17

Hi Alexandro,

Really great to get your perspective on here, and also to talk about your family. I remember when I was probably 8 or so and you had first arrived. I had a tent pitched out in the back yard in Colorado Springs. At that time, there were several staff members living out there in tents on the property. For me it was great fun to camp outside, but I’m not sure if you were one of those who initially living on the grounds waiting for a space to open up in the attic or whatever. There were people everywhere. I was just glad I had a warm room to go back to. It never really hit me that some people were actually living on the grounds.

But the main recollection I had about you is that you were just about to get married to Joyce. And as a kid I remember thinking that I’d never seen someone with such a big smile as you had when you talked about her. You were showing someone a ring, and tie and tie clip you were going to wear for the wedding I think. So I’m very happy to hear that smile led to a really strong and dynamic family that continues to grow. It was good to see Joyce at the Peltiers’ party. I agree with you wholeheartedly that the friendships in the community are/were extraordinary. It’s not just war bonding, like happened in the shelter cycle to a lot of people, but also genuine shared experience. So many people were seeking wholeness and a big part of that was finding each other.

I’m glad that both you and Harry are on here corroborating what I saw. I know that some of those times whether at the Land of Lanello, or on the beach in Malibu or at some kind of big staff barbecue it would have been easy to forget the strained nature of the experience. It was definitely a balancing act between the very real good times we were capable of having, the perception of “spiritual” good times, and the chastisements and crises that were always on tap.

For me as a kid, the crises spoiled my ability to enjoy the good times. Because there were enough moments where something fun was happening, and it was always overshadowed by some organizational crisis, world event, or the need to stop whatever we were doing and pray (decree). No family or staff event was complete without the requisite decree session. This was taken to the absurd many times on family vacations. I remember many occasions where we would be parked at the beach or at some “fun” spot and sitting in the car or van with mom for an hour or more decreeing watching everyone else just enjoying themselves. Sometimes we’d finish the decrees and I’d think she was going to let us out, and then she’d be fumbling with the rosary tapes and slam one of those in. Another 45 minutes gone. (That’s why I really liked it when the “surrender rosary” came out, it was only 20 or so minutes–the “evening” rosaries were shorter too–yay). By the time we finally got out after all those decrees, it always seemed anti-climactic. I wish I could have all those hours back.

But anyway, as you say, there were good times and bad times. At least there was no physical danger or abuse. Most people figured it out when they were good and ready. Growing up there, we really didn’t have a choice, and that’s one of the things that has made coming to terms with the hypocrisy and issues so difficult. Most people have to separate from their parents and realize they’re not perfect people. Doing that and letting go of God at the same time was an extraordinary effort. And in CUT, it was really all three, God, parents, and government (since, you know, Saint Germain was the real authority for the United States government, and Americans were chosen people).

Thanks everyone for participating in this thread. It has immense value to me and I’m sure to many others who have not commented. I get grateful email from all over the world.


becky lipinski / December 17th, 2008, 3:50 pm / #18

I think you deserve a big hand yourelf, Sean. A pat on the back from Virginia–and I hope to be in touch over the holidays. :)

AmenASHandF / December 18th, 2008, 1:01 am / #19

Louis, hello,
I just read about what you wrote on the local elderly woman whom you knew that was dealing with entities & the Masters disapproval of her not decreeing enough. Was this around 93/94? I had met an elderly woman over the phone at Glastonbary & the following summer when I got in touch with her was suffering an attack by “the forces”. When I last called her she refused to have me stay at her place because of the attack she was enduring. I asked her if she contacted “Mother” about it, she said yes but no one answered her or responded. I wasn’t surprised. Growing up I learned thats how the Church delt with these sort of issues & there was nothing I knew in how to help her! This was one of the reasons I never became a tithing member of C.U.T.! Just a member of the Fraternity. What became of her? I’ve forgotten her name. I’m sure I’d remember it. She was a very devoted chela. I noticed these attacks happened often to the most devoted & dicaplined to decreeing & folowing of the teachings. Please let me know what became of her. I can’t remember why I didn’t keep in touch with her to make sure everything turned out alright with what she was facing! I often wondered what happened. I can still hear in my head her desperation on the phone to me of how hard she was fighting the forces, weilding that unbelievably rediculous sword & what “they” were putting her through!
When I remember these things/experiences I get such horrible headaches from knowing the lack of support & help so many didn’t recieve when such things were happening. I suffered tremendous mental anguish for not helping her. I wanted so much to be there with her, for her but she wouldn’t let me out of concern for me. Thk u.

Louis / December 18th, 2008, 3:19 pm / #20

This was here in Vancouver, so different person.

I never owned one of those ceremonial Michael swords. Looked like a machete to me. Blavatsky started that nonsense about a stainless steel sword being able to cut through (non existent) astral entities, etc. Islam-o-tards are fond of a sword too, but I believe Blavatsky took her concept from Indian esoteric traditions.

This elderly lady also had a sword; it didn’t help.

I know this will sound utterly disrespectful to the lady you are talking about, but she sounds like a bit of a drama queen. Fighting off all those baddies by her self, rather than letting a fellow be her sisters keeper. The alleged multiplication ( 2 or more gathered) alone would (you’d think) make a great difference. Whether it was a case of drama queen, or just metal illness; you shouldn’t carry any guilt or stress over it.

I was at a fall conference (I think it was my second conference ever) and still relatively new. I spent the afternoon sessions in King Authors Court (usually decreeing) and observed a guy completely losing it. He was in a cold sweet, decreeing like mad, hunched over at times, almost growling the decrees. He kept changing seats, and made quite a ruckus doing it. He was obviously extremely disturbed. No one official confronted this. I finally walked up to a staff member and asked if things were alright? This lady in a most dismissive tone said, “Oh, he is an SU student.” Like that somehow changed things.

This don’t look below the level of the Christ attitude, and ignore the human creation, also had a tendency to come off as, we aren’t our brothers keeper.

Anyway Amen, I wouldn’t take on any anxiety over a situation, you had no hand in creating.

Now that the church is changing it’s tune and playing the role of ‘Community Building’… All that time spent ignoring the human, and they are showing themselves to be a bunch of rank amateurs when it comes to this new direction.

All that time suppressing the shadow, ignoring the human, and giving credence to the imaginary, has its price. That price manifests itself when sheriffs pull out there guns and shoot a ceremonial sword wielding deranged man. Stuff like that makes the papers, but many in that organization suffered from mental illness. Demons and entities were the scapegoats and decreeing the medication.

Staff, ignoring the tell tail signs, would have better served those individuals by intervening and encouraging them to seek medical treatment. Astreas, Michael Rosaries and dweller calls as a treatment, failed miserably.

amina / December 20th, 2008, 9:09 am / #21

really funny the episode about the "SU student" decreing like mad and the response of the people around
thank you for sharing this

harry. s. / December 18th, 2008, 10:29 pm / #22

Clear Seeing

Although this particular thread seems to be at or near its natural end, we can thank those who have read and commented, with valuable insights and experiences which have fleshed out the subject.

I would like to share a few final thoughts on the subject of Clairvoyance. Some might shun the idea of the very existence of clarivoyance, but i would suggest that we all have the capability to see clearly, to a greater or lesser extent, often based on the moment and context in which we are engaged, and varying due to the complexity of the personal or existential fabric of interweaving influences which comprise the objects of our vision and consideration.

We all have experienced moments of particularly clear inner realization…when formerly unresolved or unrevealed ideas emerge from the clouds into the sun of clarity. Clairvoyance does not need to take on a metaphysical connotation, although some seeing may be said to be above the physical sense of sight It is the act of self-directed or naturally heightening sight into natural processes which ordinaritly are above, or below, the baseline depth of vision. Moments of clarity can be brought on by neurochemicals, or exalting drugs, or relaxing meditation, or intentional focused concentration, or cognitive logic illuminated by the inner light, or many other factors. The hypnopompic and hypnogogic states, which are the brief moments when we are just falling asleep but still slightly conscious, and when we are emerging from sleep but not yet fully in our logical mindset, these times are known historically as the greatest moments when inventors and scientists and artists have seen the light, and brought down to earth the great inventions and revelations and lyrics and ideas for works of art. Clear seeing is not the sole possession of mystics, but is also experienced daily by agnostics, atheistics, deists, and everyone in between. Physical eyesight is the most dominant sense, and inner seeing is the most powerful means to wrest understanding and wisdom from that which our eyes look upon..

Those who for whatever reasons ended up in the role of seer, either for ECP or in the other movements going back as far as the Egyptian temples, the Oracles at Delphi, and the various esoteric schools, had a more formalized experience where inner perception and sensitivity to subtle influences was inculcated and cultivated for a purpose. But who is to say where on the scale of truth and accuracy any seer or any other person is, and it highlights the fact that those who see the most clearly are are likely to refrain from self aggrandizement and take the fruits of the vision into the domain of privacy and discretion. When you see an inner pattern of your friend or loved one or colleague or ill person, the purpose and value may be to help or support or raise up that person, so clear seeing is one of the blessings we can use in the pursuit and practice of pure selfless compassion.

The point i am trying to make is that to the extent we can look between the obvious lines, and peer into the deeper recesses of the natural and interpersonal worlds, the sense of sight strengthens, to our benefit and that of others. And it need not be considered the gift of a few but rather the power inherent in all to see clearly in a progressive discipline which builds on itself and increases over time. Clairvyance, clear seeing, is a good thing, which has been misused by some, and portrayed as a rare spiritual power by others, but which is really the power we all have to focus our fullest perception through the sense of inner sight.

BlackSun / December 18th, 2008, 10:47 pm / #23

Harry S.,

Well said! Couldn’t agree more. I’ve often thought that the word “spirituality” should be redefined as “self-awareness.” And self-awareness makes it easier to perceive what is truly going on with others vs. projection. And I agree also that sometimes keeping quiet about what you perceive is the most important part of all.

Interpersonal communications: the final frontier. People who handle it well, especially within groups, have my utmost respect.

Speaking of the “final frontier” a slight off-topic comment: Majel Barrett Roddenberry, widow of Gene died today. Gene was one of those visionaries, like Carl Sagan who left us way too soon. I’m sad to hear of his wife’s death, I’m sure that brain of hers contained many gems of experience and insight which are now gone forever from the world.

AmenASHandF / December 19th, 2008, 12:55 am / #24

thk you for your words, I wish I had them long ago. I too said & felt the same way about being there for her as you put it, being her sister keeper & as we were taught (part of the reason I chose the fraternity over church membership). I thought it was odd she didn’t want my support .
I had learned form one of ECP’s lectures on the use of the sword and or a dictation aswell about Madam B. having started it, thk u, I did know about this already. I just remember how much I wanted to just die out of embarrassment when a family friend got it for us at Christmas!! We couldn’t afford it so Yea! we couldn’t have one! boo when we got it for Xmass! My mom had been making me use a regular knife in the meantime before we got that sword, always using it during all the appropriat type of decrees – Micheal’s, Astrea’s, Dweller on the Threshold, Exorcism decrees etc. I personaly thought the sword was not right, just absolutly ridiculous and just simply too much. Things in C.U.T. were getting out of hand. But as a chela things happend to me to change my mind/oppinion & I too started going through the exact same things this lady and so many others went through & became desperate, also using the sword franticly! What else could I do? Get committed? Who wants that?! I’ve come to understand it becomes like an OCD type of problem. These teachings or religious beliefs & the phenomena of religion out playing itself in human beings drives me to understand it more fully after what I’ve experienced & have seen happen to all of us. Spiritual stuff is such a human reality, animals do not share so much of our issues/practices. They’re more real than we are! Life to me is as if it’s one big mythological outplaying of the heart, emotion, disires, dreaming, wishing. Life is weird! Not normal at all. As the Greeks believed, we are the Gods play things. Maybe were are just physics play things, constantly experimenting with us, seeing how we turn out when this or that happens. Sure feels that way! Like we’re life’s lab rats!
You make many points I too have had along with many others who’ve shared the same points & ideas, it’s just common collective knowledge to have them it seems. Man what we all could have ended up accomplishing w/ our lives instead of what we had! Ugh, sai la vie!
I too have come to see how much religion forgets the human, becoming so absorbed in all the out of touch beliefs. Thats one of the very reasons religion hasn’t wked. So so very true about the human, absolutly agree.
The story about the SU student are things I’ve witnessed to. And C.U.T. did nothing while critisizing all other religions for failing to help society because of thier corruption, when ECP was doing the same. Go figure, human nature of contridiction! Or is that self deniel that becomes strengthen from everyone around that person not speaking up against thier delusions & misconceptions? Not judging, just pointing out. I too feel that this is something I contributed to, not sticking to my views stronger & raising my voice against it all.
Well I don’t mean to carry any anxiety over it, it’s something personal about how I function/react to unfortunate events that enter my life that I could have done something about. My brain just goes thru a spin. I have always been this way about so many things in life. I can’t watch the news anymore because how upset I get now from all the uglyness. See I grew up learning to always at least pray about this or that wrong, having the hope & faith it was being taken care of because I prayed, cared. Now I’m learning to just put it out of my head & say what a world?!! Geez! Enoughs enough! The headach that comes w/ it is inevitable though. It’ll go away in time as I grow into my new person.
Thks so much for your response & support. I appreiciated all that you wrote! It’s all on target. Have a great Xmass & New Year, to everyone else aswell, have an awesome time with family & friends!
Peace & Love,
Amen Sigala

William Brookhaven / December 21st, 2008, 4:45 pm / #25

Harry S. – There is a question outstanding. On December 10, I asked this question: On the subject of being “Blue-Rayed” by ECP (1973-1981), did she give you a pass on that, given your position? Or did you get your share of it too?

harry s. / December 25th, 2008, 4:37 am / #26

I do not want this thred to veer too far towards being about my personal experiences, which i fear may already be the case. It was intended by Sean to be on the subject of clairvoyance and ECP. Since your latest questions are somewhat off-topic for this discussion, either Sean can give me your email or we can take these subjects up if and when an appropriate thread is established.

William Brookhaven / December 25th, 2008, 1:46 am / #27

Harry S. – While you are chewing on the previous question, I have another one that might be easier to answer. During all the time you were part of the TSL/CUT organization, did you ever get any (inner and personally relevant) indication at all that the Ascended Masters were real?

William Brookhaven / December 28th, 2008, 12:06 am / #28

Harry S. – The dictations from 1980 onwards contained many references to the idea that ECP was a clear channel for the ascended masters to give important path-related teachings to those who came into her personal orbit. Students were led to believe that her word on a particular issue to a particular person often originated in a Light Impulse from the Heart of one or another Ascended Master, on a point on which the person needed some assistance. And then too, in her sermons, and personal talks to the students, she often spoke of being shown various things on the inner by the ascended masters. And then too, she made at least one public statement regarding the fact that she was not in control of what the Masters would show her, or when, that they extended their input only when it suited their purpose.

Given this situation in which the communication channels were clear and open between the ascended masters and her own heart, a fact that she herself was aware of, why did she seek to know things that the ascended masters obviously were not ready to show her?

Why didn’t anyone point out to her, that if the ascended masters wanted her to know something, that they would show her? And if they didn’t show her, that this was just as much a statement of truth, as a vision of paradise? Why didn’t anyone point out to her that her desire to see what the ascended masters would not show to her, bordered on an inordinate desire, which would be an inroad for forces on the astral plane which were not of the Light? Did you ever discuss this with her? Did you ever discuss with her the idea that this “seer” thing bordered on disobedience, and was an expression of a lack of trust in the ascended masters themselves?

BEDIIAKO / January 23rd, 2009, 11:11 pm / #29

FOOD FOR THOUGHT: If you have legs and you decide to cut them off you will not be able to use your legs again. Likewise if you have a spiritual power and you decide to abuse it you will not be able to use that power again. All part of the unwritten LAWS governing life.

BlackSun / January 24th, 2009, 12:02 am / #30


You're making false analogies all over the place. Legs you can see and feel, as opposed to "spiritual power" which is a subjective construct at best. Claiming "misuse" of spiritual power presupposes it's objectively "real" and that there's some governing entity who makes "laws" and revokes your spiritual drivers license if you abuse it, so to speak. This is, to put it politely, hogwash.

Also, please do not use multiple comment handles. Pick one and stick with it. Thanks.

TitforTat / January 24th, 2009, 8:09 pm / #31

Just curious, do you think it possible for anyone to have an ability to access memories or experiences of other people?

BlackSun / January 26th, 2009, 6:13 am / #32

I think this could only happen through the development of brain-machine interfaces. This is still very much sci-fi, although fMRI machines are now allowing thoughts to be read. You can actually tell what a person is looking at by scanning their brain.

Ray Kurzweil has a lot to say about this, have you read any of his books? I would say that the problem of subjectivity will be severe. Different people would interpret memories and experiences very differently. You'd have to figure out how to pass along the subjective frame of mind, along with the experience. A lot of work to do before we get there. But experience is simply information processing, so I don't see any theoretical barrier to sharing experiences and memories. Kurzweil calls this "experience beaming," kind of like video streaming, but with all the other experiential information included.

Mark Herrick / January 26th, 2009, 6:17 am / #33

I've included this story and a few others of Sean's so far in a thread I've (QuickHitCurepon) made called "The most cunning of all the cults, the Church Universal & Triumphant." It's in the On Topic Section just below the main forum. If anyone feels really strongly about posting a comment in it, before a whole new venue, they could sign up right now with, a large forum. There is about a three-week waiting process to get approved there before you can view in all the forums. I expect and hope my thread will last another week, but when it starts moving towards the graveyard, the rules are that you should not post in an old thread if it is at most one month old. When done there, I will probably make the same thread at where I am QuickHitGondolin. I will also alter all my posts to fit into my blog there. You don't even have to be a member to view it at So look for it! So far it's going incredibly fantastic with the current one. It would be great also to see some new posters at Thoughts on this subject. Great stories, Sean! Take it easy.

TitforTat / January 26th, 2009, 1:59 pm / #34

Ok, if potentially we may be able to make a machine that can do that, do you not think its possible that human beings may have that possibility too? There have been some instances where it looks like that is now possible even though it may not be possible to recreate it consistently.

BlackSun / January 26th, 2009, 7:29 pm / #35

TitforTat, you'd have to theorize as to how that would work. Otherwise, it's just speculation. I haven't heard of any legitimate research supporting reliable human-to-human telepathy of any kind.

We know brain-machine interfaces can be built because they've already made brain-controlled limbs, cursors, etc., and the above mentioned fMRI research. Now it's just a question of refinement. What may happen in the future in this regard is an open question. While we may extrapolate from present to future science to a certain degree, I don't find that kind of speculation about future discoveries of the supernatural to be at all useful. See my earlier article on the Radio Wave Argument.

TitforTat / January 26th, 2009, 9:28 pm / #36


Thanks for the reply. I know a person who occasionally gets information on people that seem to defy logic as we understand it. She cant control it, nor does she try to take advantage of it in any way, yet the instances are so accurate it makes me wonder if there is some sort of telepathy or something going on. I know it cant be controlled as is needed in most testing, but Im still left with the experience of what she does that leaves me open to the possibility that there is more to it than I can understand. By the way Im not trying to convince you of it, Im just relaying something interesting that happens in my life on a semi regular occasion.

BlackSun / January 26th, 2009, 10:37 pm / #37

I would say it's confirmation bias, i.e. counting the hits, ignoring the misses. This is a very seductive way of thinking. "Wow, I was just thinking about calling you when the phone rang!" A scientist would say: how many times did you think of the person and the phone didn't ring? You don't take note of those kinds of occasions (misses). Simple example, but very common and misleading phenomenon. Same thing with your friend. How many times does she take a lucky guess as evidence, while dismissing the times when she's wrong? This is a widespread cognitive error. We have to rely on controlled evidence-based testing. According to that, there is no evidence for "esp."

TitforTat / January 27th, 2009, 4:21 am / #38


I agree with your analogy, but what Im talking about is much more specific, even though it is quite isolated and isnt something she does on command. One event I know of had her saying names of people she didnt know and events that happened in the past by these said people. The events were also only known by immediate family members. She knew none of the family. Never met any of them before or since. The family member she did talk with has never talked with her again. She did confirm the statements though. Very bizarre, and trust me I would love to know how she guessed it, or I would love to know how she picked up the subtle cues to make the claims. No one can prove it either way, its very baffling to say the least. The one thing in life that gets me though is when people make absolute statements, especially about things we cant be absolute on.

TitforTat / January 27th, 2009, 4:26 am / #39

Dont tell me you know God, but also dont tell me there is no Creator. Neither can be verified. There are things in our lifetime that will never be proven by you or I or anyone else. This doesnt mean they didnt happen. Your example with Leonardo was perfect. Im sure science may end up proving lots of "supernatural" things.

BlackSun / January 27th, 2009, 4:59 am / #40


Dont tell me you know God, but also dont tell me there is no Creator. Neither can be verified.

Right, but that doesn't mean both have an equal probability of being true. The 50/50 probability assertion is part of the apologist technique of proof-burden shifting.

It is a very small, but non-zero probability there is some kind of conscious creator of the universe. But since we don't know anything about what or who that is, then it's not really useful to talk about it. The idea of a creator is also subject to infinite regress (who created the creator, etc.) so really philosophically solves nothing.

The probability of a Judeo-Christian God is even smaller still. So when you say "can't be verified" that has much more bearing on the assertions of theists than atheists. Theists make broad and sweeping claims about their god, who he is, what he thinks, what his laws are.

Atheists do not make a positive claim, they say when you talk about God, "define your terms" and "show me the evidence."

Your example with Leonardo was perfect. Im sure science may end up proving lots of "supernatural" things.

You're sure? Sounds pretty much like baseless assertion to me. See Leonardo described flight, but he couldn't fly. So if we want to talk about the supernatural, we have to wait until someone can discover or describe it in a scientific way. Leonardo crashed. He had the right idea, but he crashed. We didn't know his idea was right for hundreds more years. So that should be a cautionary tale for people who get too far ahead of themselves with assumptions.

I think people need to wait to make their supernatural claims until they know what they are studying. But then, it wouldn't be supernatural anymore, it would just be another natural phenomenon. I'd welcome the study of thought transmission, if it existed. I just doubt that it does, until I see positive repeatable evidence.

BlackSun / January 27th, 2009, 5:11 am / #41


Another statement of the scientific case against the existence of God.

TitforTat / January 27th, 2009, 2:16 pm / #42

You're sure? Sounds pretty much like baseless assertion to me. (blacksun)

Lol. I guess I should have left out the word sure. The thing is its important that people have vision for things. So long as they dont try to take advantage of people with it. Leonardo, at the time, was wrong too. Im not condoning the idea of a theistic creator, but it seems to me that even science is looking for a starting point or creation event. Now because consciousness is part of my existence is it wrong to think that it could be part of the creation point that I ultimately arise from? Again, you or I may never know with in our lifetime if its true or not. But is it really useless to discuss these matters? I liken it to "spontaneous remission" in some diseases. They are not sure why these things sometimes happen but it sure looks like there is something there that we dont quite understand yet. If anything can be gleaned from the questioning, maybe its a better understanding of each other. And that is always a good thing.

Larris / May 21st, 2009, 5:51 am / #43

Hello there

Thanks for text.
About Harry wrote he said she doesnt had this "power". But while Mark he said he saw words in fire like
a ticker tape in front of his inner vision. So does Mark had this power or these was all acting ? Maybe you know
this stuff about Harry and you can answer, which religion/philosophy is Harry practicing right now ? And
he stills decrees ? I just wanna know for enlight me. Thanks.

ELIAKIM / September 19th, 2011, 2:59 pm / #44

ECP fulfilled the biblical prophecies of Rev 2 and Rev 17. One of her key followers was also part of the biblical prophecies in Rev 12, he stood against the real Messenger of the Covenant. Messiah Joseph who was promised by the LORD God.

What is concerning now is the sheer numbers of people in the USA that ECP's work as impacted upon.. The biblical prophecies predicted that she would be put on a bed of suffering and her children would be struck down. As we know she like to be called Guru Ma as such everyone involved with her are told to repent in Rev 2. Its important that they now understand TESHUVAH and how to return to all that is sacred and pure.

Rev 18 is also about the USA, it is the only nation that fits the criteria of the prophecy.

So yes the LORD God does exist and so does his Son.

Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God.

Eleazar Solomon Goldman / March 12th, 2012, 2:53 pm / #45

Eleazar Solomon, a Jew in Guanauato, Mexico, to past or present members of the Summit Lighthouse

A number of times in my life, I was either handed material published by Summit Lighthouse teachings, or met people involved with Elizabeth Prophets’ teachingsI . I was never attracted to the material or the leader of Summit Lighthouse. Or Dianetics/Scientology. Or Mormonism or the teachings of the Witnesses, among many other deluded groups and their leaders. After reading all the various comments on this website thread, I am saddened by the obvious fact that she was very delusional and had misled so many people to believe her assertions of being a “messenger for ascended beings”. Some of you apparently suffered much more than others and have even “thrown the baby out with the bathwater”, meaning that ALL spirituality, even the existance of G-d is discounted along with the delusions asserted by the leader.

BUT, I have to tell you that yes, there is a way to find out whether G-d exists, whether higher worlds exist and the beings who live within those worlds. SEAN “BlackSun” in particular, I feel suffered very deeply as her son, and has rejected the whole gamut of “spiritual” subjects because they “can’t be quantified or otherwise determined by scientific (materialistic) methods”. I’m very sorry that he feels he must take this position. At the same time, I feel this website is doing an invaluable service to those who either have been part of the “community of believers”, or who still are and maybe need some clear guidance out of the delusion they became a part of. ALL of our life experiences and decisions partake of the spiritual dimension, whether we see it or not. Or choices determine whether we advance or fall back, and must retrace the steps again. Wisdom is gained one step at a time, very very slowly.

I too have come across similar “leaders” of so-called spiritual groups that were self-agrandizing, intentionally deluding their followers, but highly effective speakers. I would say that maybe 98% of all religious groups that I have met in life are deluded about what they believe, but that the real good that the followers get is from having a community of people to relate to.. I think Nancy Couick shows a very balanced way of dealing with what went on within the community: while clearly realizing the unreal aspects of what occured and condemning it, she also has taken the good and useful elements from her experience and acknowledges them too. For her, both the “good” and the “bad” were learning experiences that she sees as valuable.

I have studied nearly everything I could find on esoteric teachings, and gradually acquired a personal library of over 500 books on subjects related to those teachings. While very interesting and informative, intellectual study alone will NOT gain admission into higher worlds or “G-d’s presence” sadly. There are and always have been individuals that have attained that “clairvoyance” or “inner vision” that many of the followers believed Ms Prophet had. Those that can sense the subtle realms clearly are very few though. And, it probably “takes one to know one”, which means that when determining who really has messages from higher beings/worlds requires that the person have a certain level of spiritual development already.

For all of us who are “seeking”, there is an appropriate level of teachers, events, or books/writings that will help us on our way and that comes to us as we evolve or devolve. But, going from an extreme of immersion in gullibilty/false leaders to a complete rejection of everything spiritual is only, in my opinion, a temporary defense mechanism for the pain that one suffered (as was clear from reading these remarks by some people). May we all progress on the PATH with discrimination, and get up again when we fail to find the ultimate reason for our existance.

For all of you that have left the fold of Summit Lighthouse teachings, you’re now ready for your next adventure, having learned the profound lesson of spiritual discrimination (and very painful one also) in this last adventure with ECP, as you call her. I hope you do NOT give up seeking true spirituality wherever you may find it. It’s not easy to live at the end of the KALI YUGA, the end of the MAYAN GREAT CYCLE, the END of DAYS of Judaism, where the greatest darkness is all about us, before the cycle brings great change.

videncia gratis / July 6th, 2013, 6:32 am / #46

Ahaa, its good conversation regarding this article here at this web site, I have read all that,
so now me also commenting at this place.

Diane / January 22nd, 2014, 11:38 am / #47

Wow Sean, I feel sorry for you. You believe in absolutely Nothing but materialism. Move over Karl Marx, Lenin and John Lennon. May you make t his physical world a better "Hell" than it already is! (because of people like you as well as the religious fanatics of the extreme right and the materialists of the extreme left) God ahead! Keep trying!! But I have a better idea which is really Budha's idea – it's called the Middle Way.

Diane / January 22nd, 2014, 12:02 pm / #48

Wow Sean – You Really Do Believe in NOTHING of the super-physical. You are a True Materialist – Move Over Karl Marx, Lenin and John Lennon. Good look in making this Material Realm a Better Hell (because that is what it is thanks to the extreme right religious fanatics, and the Extreme Left Materialists such as yourself) – God Ahead! Keep trying and fighting each other and ruining it for everyone else in between. I think I like Buddha's idea better- THE MIDDLE WAY!

visitor / April 27th, 2014, 2:30 pm / #49

Hi – this thread is probably quite old; still I'd like to chip in with my few cents.I was in the US in the beginning of the nineties and had a hard time connecting with the the more subtle energies. Having known about SL for a time, I became a member and instantly got in contact with the hgher energies abounding in the US. Also attended a seminar where ECP spoke. I am sure that she was very, very sensitive as I had a personal experience face to face with her during one of her presentations. Recently watched a video with the new head of CUT, and there too was an intense downpouring of celestial energy during it.

visitor / April 27th, 2014, 2:31 pm / #50

Personally I've been attacked by many different energies over the years and learned how to counter them – in part by using some of the decrees from SL/CUT. I'm saddened by the many examples of gross violations that have taken place and can truly understand why many people feel offended, misused etc – but not having had any part in all that, sts, as an outsider – I just want to put in a kind word for the efficacy of some of the teachings/methods. We are not in general aware of the many spiritual and other energies that surround us and therefore any kind of protection and cleansing is better than none at all. But of course within reasons!

Marcellus / January 27th, 2015, 8:14 am / #51

There is a teacher of something called Matrix Energetics by the name of Richard Bartlett. I have attended some of his seminars. I am a little taken aback when he mentions the spiritual community in Montana he was part of as well as his reverence of Elizabeth Claire Prophet , for whom he says he was a doctor for.

Can anybody shed some light on Mr. Bartlett's behavior and role in Cut? I have read many many books including those of Summit University and I can see that many of the concepts from CUT are making their way in his teachings in his seminars.

Doris Tracey / September 24th, 2016, 11:33 am / #52

All prophets come to warn and to extol. It is up to us to change. We are in the great tribulation and the darkness that has covered the land has been upon us for a very long time. We have been experiencing a return of extreme negative energy. To be exact, 25,800 years of returning negative karma. It is only by the grace of pure energy(God) that we are still experiencing the physical octave. Elizabeth and Mark Prophet were prophesied by John the beloved on the island of Patmos in the book of revelation. They are called the Two Witnesses. Our lives are pre-ordained but not predestined. We can lose our souls and become castaways if we choose.

AnMedina / November 8th, 2016, 9:52 pm / #53

HI Black sun journal.
I just found this page a couple days ago, I have been reading a lot about ECP and your posts.
I was in the teachings for almost 3 years and I remember the first time I saw a video of ECP I thought she could use all those rings to give food to poor people, I remember, I felt almost offended, but the people there have an explanation for everything and in time I believed she was the true and the only messenger, I always had questions but I remember feelings really bad about doubting her and the teachings, then I would make a rosary asking to surrender my "human mind".
I also remember one time I friend of mind ( he's been for a long time in the teachings) warned me not to read anything "bad" about ECP from her kids… ( they really believe Sean is a fallen one ). Now I can see all the tricks, they work the same for every religion, keep people away from uncomfortable realities and keep following stupid rules that most of the time don't make any sense. I cannot deny I still feel fear and a profound sense of disappointment and pain for reading all this stuff, I mean, after all, what brought me to the teachings was a sense of wanting to know the truth and that is what is taking me out, I not longer have contact with people from the TC.
I lost a lot of friends and it is really painful, but I need to read all of this, so, I am really grateful to you Sean and all the people that make this page possible.
I am now learning a lot from Richard Dawkins, Sam harris and other great people that are opening my eyes about how toxic religion can be, but none of them ever mention the "ascended masters" that is why I find this page amazing and really useful for my process of letting go of my delusions about GOD and all these lies!
Again, Thank you.
Greetings from Colombia.

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